Has Pep been sent to destroy us?

Last 5 games we have been utter shit. Not happy with many of things Pep has done.
Hart out and Bravo in is a travesty. Is he deliberately tring to piss off senior players like Vinny & Sergio cos it wont work. It never does. Look at Maureen at Chelski last season

Some of his selections are just mental - Leaving Sergio on the bench v Barca
Our football is actually now worse than last season. 1st half today was just sheer boredom & clueless
WTF is Pep teaching them in training cos for me we seem to be going backwards
Our new signings have all been a big disappointment so far. Stones the best of a bad bunch, although I'm still not convinced he's any better than Mangala.
I'm almost tempted to say bring back the lazy MF (Sorry Bluey)

Was a small consolation today that the Rags were totally humiliated  but that'l probably now mean they are even more up for it in the LC

5 winless games is very worrying.

5 winless games when trying to implement a completely new system isn't anything to worry about.  If we'd not won ten on the spin at the beginning of the season, nobody would be that bothered.

Sergio was left on the bench against Barca because he wasn't quite fit and Pep, unlike any of his predecessors, won't rush him back.  Vinny told the doctor that he wasn't fit enough to play against Barca and today he looked rusty, but that's as to be expected.

Yes, the first half was very dull indeed.  But the second half we showed some intensity.  And Pep didn't do his post match presser until quite late because he'd had the team locked in the dressing room for quite some time - one would hope that he was giving them the mother of all bollockings.

Not time to panic just yet, I'm sure he'll sort it out soon enough.

TMG wrote:Last 5 games we have been utter shit. Not happy with many of things Pep has done.
Hart out and Bravo in is a travesty. Is he deliberately tring to piss off senior players like Vinny & Sergio cos it wont work. It never does. Look at Maureen at Chelski last season

Some of his selections are just mental - Leaving Sergio on the bench v Barca
Our football is actually now worse than last season. 1st half today was just sheer boredom & clueless
WTF is Pep teaching them in training cos for me we seem to be going backwards
Our new signings have all been a big disappointment so far. Stones the best of a bad bunch, although I'm still not convinced he's any better than Mangala.
I'm almost tempted to say bring back the lazy MF (Sorry Bluey)

Was a small consolation today that the Rags were totally humiliated  but that'l probably now mean they are even more up for it in the LC

5 winless games is very worrying.

Can only reply with the following to each point Tony in ( ):

Last 5 games we have been utter shit. Not happy with many of things Pep has done.
(Celtic got two very fortunate goals. Spurs we were poor, agreed. Everton we missed 2 pens and played some brilliant football, just didn't find the final ball. Barca, we were great until Fernandniho's slip and Bravo madness. Today, we were shit in the first half, but had plenty of possession to score.)

Some of his selections are just mental - Leaving Sergio on the bench v Barca (I said the same thing at the time, however, guess we have to look at the game in it's entirety - even at 1-0, we were probably still the better team, so his false 9 with KDB was working).

Our new signings have all been a big disappointment so far. Stones the best of a bad bunch, although I'm still not convinced he's any better than Mangala. (I stuck up for Mangala, but today, was another wasteful pass which caused the goal, however, if you watch the build up, there are more than Stones culpable for it, even though he was the one who played the back pass. It's very much like the Lukaku goal. Clichy got blamed, but Stones and Otamendi were equally to blame for that one. It seems we have to put up with this style of play - as Pep says he won't change it - therefore, we are relying on our attacking players to do more - which sadly, they haven't been great).

'm almost tempted to say bring back the lazy MF (Sorry Bluey). (I think you'd just be replacing like for like with Gundogan. I think he's been poor so far. I'm hopeful he'll improve, but as it stands, he's slowing everything down for me and isn't quick to get back and start things moving quickly when we break. If Pep persists with him and Silva, I'd still have him over TLMLF every day of the week).

I just think we've tried to incorporate too many players into a system, that on the whole, works....but is stifling our forward line. We've ended up with too many 'false 9's' in attack, taking up the same space that they all want, including Aguero. When Kelechi came on, Aguero was free to roam, but still, the build up play was slow, except when Sterling went in behind Aguero and Kelechi.....I just think we can either play with Silva or Gundogan, not both.

Interestingly, apart from his goal at Swansea, with Fernandinho and Silva in a MF 2, we'd won all 10 games. Since the Swansea game when Gundogan scored, we've lost 2 and drawn 2.

Make of that what you want....but I've been underwhelmed with Gundogan so far this season.

I think come January, with Jesus arriving, Pep needs to find a way of fitting in 4 attacking MF's....if he's going to play 3 at the back....because so far, since Gundogan has played there, Fernandinho has hardly moved from his side....making us less attacking and slower.

Just my observation.

exactly, couldnt agree more. Gundogan is so far, a complete waste of money and i hope Pep realises this midfield overloading is not working out unless it;s just that the players need more time adapting to it.

Pep will persist with is players. Sane and Gundogan are his players and they aren't doing it for me. Nolito should have started today.

Today was probably the first time I was slumped in my seat totally bored shitless. That first half was mind numbing. I can't even remember cheering, clapping or singing. There wasn't much atmosphere at all, hardly surprising when the team was doing so little. Maybe the club should pay 100 people to sing, chant and cheer throughout the match to get others going.

We were ponderous and slow. There was a bollocking at HT as we came out looking like we meant business and there were some meatier tackles. Why couldn't we start the first half like that?

I've said it before, but we can't play with Fernandinho, Silva and Gundogan at the same time. So drop Gundogan.

Unfortunately, thats like saying drop the chuckle brother, aint gonna happen!

There's a lot of chatter about Aguero. Where's that coming from? Just the media?

I really didn't see us pressing yesterday in a Barca style. We didn't seem that eager to win the ball back. Aguero certainly didn't in the 1st half.

It's obvious Sane has been told to hug the touchline and never to leave it. But he doesn't get involved when he could and should. he doesn't make runs for the player with the ball on his side. He just stands there like a scarecrow until the ball is passed to him and then, most of the time, he passes it back. It was like Silva had to implore him to make runs in the channel.

Oh, I don't know, I thought Sané did okay for the most part.  I saw him make quite a lot of runs at his full back and more often than not got past him.  He certainly worried Southampton enough for them to park two men on him whenever the ball went down that side.  He certainly did more than Gundogan.

But yesterday's formation was all wrong, for me.  3-6-1 was never going to give us the room against Southampton's narrow formation and we just ended up with Silva, KdB, Gundogan and Dino all occupying the same space.  Sterling and Sané stayed out wide more because there was just no room for them in the middle.  When Kev was switched for Kelechi, we suddenly had more room and more attacking intent.

But we still need some clinical finishing, we had way too many wasted chances again.

There may not have been the room inside, but Pep has told them to hug the touchline. First half, I think Sane went at his defender twice. Skinned him but he kicked the ball too far. Second half, after the wingers were switched, they were much better.

Why can't we go back to the team that was winning games, even though we had some luck on our side because those teams were far far better than what we are seeing now?

I thought adding Gundogan and Sane would make us even better, and that would have been a frightening prospect for everyone else, but it hasn't.

I still think Fernandinho and Silva playing the deeper MF role is better. Silva makes things happen, quickly. He's always looking to play a ball in and beyond their MF's....Gundogan is a little ponderous and he tracked back yesterday like TLMLF would...just jogging.

Maybe he needs more time - but it can't be at the expense of the team.

As for Sane, I thought he did OK yesterday. The problem was, he was clearly instructed to stay in that 'zone' that we all know Pep trains with. Leave it, and you get bollocked or taken off.

Yeah, agree with that SB. I said before, top of the league, 2nd in the CL group, rags next week for the League Cup....i think we'd all have taken that at the beginning of the season, especially knowing back then, that it would take time for Pep to get his message across to the players.

Problem was, we started so well, expectations were high - and apart from the Spurs game and yesterday in the first half, we've played pretty well.

I think it's just frustrating when you see the manner in which our opposition have scored against us.

Some gave Mangala absolute pelters for one or two mistakes when he was here....well on current form, he's not looking too bad a player, albeit, he hasn't the ball skills to get into a Pep team.

Celtic - one offside and two poor defensive mistakes.

Spurs - more mistakes.

Everton, 3 mistakes in one build up by Everton.

Barca, 4 mistakes and a keeping howler.

Soton - poor mistake.

Most of the goals we've conceded have been through our own errors - and pretty much howlers, rather than brilliant play from the opposition, so if we can negate 50% of them, we'll be better placed....but we need a good win for confidence, that's why I think he'll go all out to beat the rags this week.

it should certainly be a strong team out against united..
we need any win at the minute  :p

Nothing to really worry about yet I agree.  Although I have lowered my expectations this season to Top 3 and a cup.   Still think we won't lose to Barca in the next game, which is another step forward (a very little one).   I actually think the Rags will be the game to stop the rot, just to see Maureen squirm even more.  Depends what team he puts out mind you.

We just need to stop these errors and Vinnie and Stones need a few games together to get on the same page.

I think that's the key...getting more game time into the Stones/Vinny partnership.....oh, and still not impressed with Bravo. Be interesting to see how Willy plays against Barca!!

I honestly didn't think Bravo played too badly yesterday only had 2 saves to make which he did. held a very good deep cross & I felt he was left totally exposed for the goal which I don't blame him for.

I think expectations, quite rightly, changed after our start to the season. I'm not expecting us to go around giving all teams a damn good thrashing, but I was hoping that we'd continue to improve as the season went on. I don't think that's happened. We are not creating the bundles of chances that I thought we would. Ok, teams have adapted but, then, so should we.

skyblueoz wrote:I honestly didn't think Bravo played too badly yesterday only had 2 saves to make which he did. held a very good deep cross & I felt he was left totally exposed for the goal which I don't blame him for.

If you watch the 20 seconds before their goal....Bravo gave the ball to Fernandinho when he wasn't in a good position to receive it. That started the whole downfall in the move. He then, playing as a sweeper keeper, stayed on his 6 yard line, whilst the play was 10 yards outside his box. If he would have been further out, to assist with the build up play, even that poor ball back by Stones would have been swept up. I know HE didn't play the poor pass, but it's all cumulative, just like the Everton goal.

Don't play a ball out to the feet of a player who has nowhere to go, but back to a defender (Stones)...Vinny made a strange move across, Bravo stays close to his goal line. Stones makes a blind pass back, Vinny is wrong footed and Bravo is too far away to intercept it.

This is what I mean about the goals we've given away so far....many are more than one player's mistakes.

Listen, it could be worse! 

"The red wine is good, I take longer over my glass."

Which is a euphemism for, "I was bloody annoyed, but what was said is between me and my players."

just read your post blue. my criticism would start with fernandinho who did not control the ball to him 1st time he then passed to stones whilst a pass to sane who was in acres of space outside him was on & would have moved the ball forward. Stones also could have played in sane but opted to go back & no call ala the united game to ref who he was passing to. I understand what you are saying about bravo but I really think this is clutching at straws to try and apportion the blame on him for this error. Fernandinho & stones were far more culpable in this instance.

should of added blue I am glad you picked up the carrickfan rant. I saw it llast night & pissed myself laughing. he don't like sunderland or city. best part was the walkers crisp burp ( sausage flavour ?) then his like of ex utd players at sunderland but the rest can be relegated & city being down there (hand gesture) looking at past 5 years it should be up there!!!! Can just imagine Walters little Heh Heh in answer.

First thing I look for after they've played!

Hmm 6 games without a win now. Something needs to change Pep. U can't keep sticking to ur way of playing if none of the players are capable of playing your way

I think that says it all Tony.....

U can't keep sticking to ur way of playing if none of the players are capable of playing your way

See my post from Martin Samuel.

We just don't have the quality of players to be playing the way that Pep wants.

Question is, will he keep his philosophy and just say "It'll get better after this season when I get the players I need"....or does he have to find another way THIS season?

We've played some great stuff, but up front, it's all gone to shit in the past few games. I don't get the fact when you're 1-0 down (tonight and Barca), you wait so long to bring on Aguero.

There's is definitely something wrong between Aguero and Pep. There just has to be.

We all knew what we needed in the summer just gone. Zabba legs had gone. Kolarov couldn't defend to save his life. Clichy was ok, but only that. Otamendi was just diving in. Kompany was too injured to be trusted.

So most of our defence had question marks over them. So we buy one defender who is young and makes mistakes. And we buy Nolito - a midfielder/attacker. We buy Sane - an attacker. We buy Gundogan - a midfielder. We buy Zinchenko - a midfielder and send him out on loan. We buy Moreno - an attacker and send him out on loan. We buy Gabriel Jesus - an attacker and send him out on loan. We got a new keeper who is so obviously not as good as the keeper we ditched.

We were the top scorers in the league last season, so I don't think our problems were in midfield or attack.

We've left a crap defence that dives in, can't control the ball, can't pass the ball and caves in under pressure.

I said after 5 games that we were lucky to have played Sunderland, West Ham, Bournemouth and Stoke (I think they were 4 of the bottom 5 after 5 games). Bucharest were poor and BMG weren't any better. We were lucky against Swansea (twice) and have been pretty poor ever since (with some good moments against Everton and Barca).

It's not the players fault. We should have gone in with a stronger team tonight. Sterling, Aguero or Silva should have started for me.

Unfortunately he,s a stubborn MF so I can't see him changing his way. After all it worked at Barca & BM.
Thing he's yet to realise is our PL is nothing like those 2 other leagues. It's much easier to play his way in Spain Germany & other European countries Also those 2 leagues have 2 or 3 good teams in them, the rest, the top teams are expected to batter & usually do. Our league is far tougher Any team can beat any other on a given day. Not to mention the amount of games the top teams here play
I agree we haven't the quality of players to play the way he wants. I fear unless he changes his stubborn ways soon our season could soon be ruined. A good start would be to bring back Little Jo but that's never gonna happen

I don't understand why Nasri was overweight. That was his problem. But, when he eventually played, he was as trim as anything and looked good. But off he went to Sevilla and he seems to be doing the business for them.

Pep's booted out Yaya (about time) but got rid of Joe and seems to have fallen out with Aguero in some way. He's hell bent on playing shit defenders and players not able to cope with a strong high press.

I don't think he has fallen out with Aguero at all? Aguero came back from the last round of internationals with an injury cloud over his head. Subbed off in his 1st game then couldn't complete a training session then played the next game v Paraguay. By all accounts was poor & missed a penalty. Arrives back From south America on the Friday to play Everton on a Saturday Lunchtime kick off. Possibly carrying a slight knock. So Understandably used as a sub. V Barcelona I still think the injury doubt was there, & as we only have Kelechi as cover I think he is erring on the side of caution with so many games to play. Again with yesterdays match dropping Silva Ferna Sterling ,Stones  etc was showing how much this trophy is down the list of priorities. As someone quite rightly said I think pep is surprised how intense the prem is regarding teams & also the number of games being crammed in.

As regards the so called shit defenders I think we as supporters have seen those players perform a lot longer than pep in matchday situations over the years, Pep on the other hand has made judgements on pre season training & Pre season games with only 3 league games to the closure of the transfer window. I guess he will have had an idea of who stays & goes but with the amount of arrivals it would have been extraordinary if we'd added the 2 or 3 defenders to an ever increasing list of players, especially if there had been no offers for the likes of Kolarov , Zabba etc. We can only go by what the media are saying during transfer speculation, & I reckon no concrete offers were forth coming.

Regarding the players shipped out on loan I agree with the fact Joe & Nasri should not have gone & also Mangala, the rest is just for experience & Mooy I still think is a pr exercise & will be sold. I think Navas was kept purely because of the Spanish connection & his ability to understand what pep requires, I do not think for one moment he is in his long term plans & defenders will be the priority signings this summer and a striker or 2. These are just my humble opinions & how I see the goings on at City currently.

There was nothing stopping us getting more defenders and letting Zabba go on a free. If someone won't leave, then they are left out of the squad, like Yaya has been left out of the CL squad.

There were clubs sniffing around Zabba for sure. I can understand us not getting a whole new defence, but I'm sure Maffeo is only playing because Zabba isn't good enough and we've also played 3 at the back probably for the same reason.

Bonucci anyone???

I agree that defenders were available but I still think our policy is to off load and as you say people were sniffing around zabba & kolarov but as I stated it appears sniffing is the operative word as there was no concrete offers. new got Stones we already had the other centre backs & a young yoyo if he makes it? we let Denayer & Mango go out on loan which tells me pep doesn't rate them but I could not see us paying 60 million for a 29yr old Bonnucci. Whether money is no object or not. company's fitness will always be of concern but it seems pep made up his mind that kolarov or fernandinho can do the temporary centre back job.

kolarov did look decent the first few games but now he's reverted back to type. Why would Pep just want to get by with our shit defence? Money wasn't an issue at all. We could afford just about anyone we wanted. He was happy enough spending nearly £40M on Sane, £30M on Jesus and other bits and pieces (Moreno, Zinchenko etc.). Why couldn't he have bought a ready made defender?

Topdawg wrote:There's is definitely something wrong between Aguero and Pep. There just has to be.

We all knew what we needed in the summer just gone. Zabba legs had gone. Kolarov couldn't defend to save his life. Clichy was ok, but only that. Otamendi was just diving in. Kompany was too injured to be trusted.

So most of our defence had question marks over them. So we buy one defender who is young and makes mistakes. And we buy Nolito - a midfielder/attacker. We buy Sane - an attacker. We buy Gundogan - a midfielder. We buy Zinchenko - a midfielder and send him out on loan. We buy Moreno - an attacker and send him out on loan. We buy Gabriel Jesus - an attacker and send him out on loan. We got a new keeper who is so obviously not as good as the keeper we ditched.

We were the top scorers in the league last season, so I don't think our problems were in midfield or attack.

We've left a crap defence that dives in, can't control the ball, can't pass the ball and caves in under pressure.

I said after 5 games that we were lucky to have played Sunderland, West Ham, Bournemouth and Stoke (I think they were 4 of the bottom 5 after 5 games). Bucharest were poor and BMG weren't any better. We were lucky against Swansea (twice) and have been pretty poor ever since (with some good moments against Everton and Barca).

It's not the players fault. We should have gone in with a stronger team tonight. Sterling, Aguero or Silva should have started for me.

So what you're saying is that the players Pep chose, are simply not good enough? If not, it is their fault.
Kelechi out for Aguero? Kelechi was poor last night.
Nolito out for Sterling? Nolito was garbage last night.
Sane out for Silva? Sane was poor last night.

The players were either poor last night or they're not good enough.

This is the team I suggested yesterday:

Big Willy
Maffeo, Kompany, Otamendi, Clichy
Garcia, Gundogan
Navas, Sterling, Sane
Aguero

I want Gundogan to come good, so give him time. Fernandinho, who would be first choice for me, deserves a rest.

Play Sterling as the number 10 - he played well enough there at the weekend. Sane, I'm not happy about but give the kids some more time. Aguero isn't in good enough form for me so play him until he is.

Aguero's had plenty of '20min' cameos...hardly the best to get into some kind of form.

Gundogan has been average so far....and he can't play the majority of games. I agree, Fernandinho needed a rest. I think with KDB out, Pep was clearly concerned not to have injuries to the likes of Silva.

It goes to show, our second string team are bang average.

I don't think our 2nd string are bang average. Remember that Otamendi and Kolarov were part of a 10 match winning run. Nolito probably played most of those games too.

Topdawg wrote:I don't think our 2nd string are bang average. Remember that Otamendi and Kolarov were part of a 10 match winning run. Nolito probably played most of those games too.

So why is Pep getting stick now? He's not doing anything different to what he did in those 10 games you mention.

We're now 16 games in, not won for 6....what's your take on what's gone wrong so far?

Even in some of those first 10 games, our defence were, at times, at panic stations. Definitely the 2nd half against Utd for example when they were better set up to compete against us, and buoyed by the chuckle brother's error gifting them a goal.

I'm starting to fell, because of this bad run and some poor performances, that some players may be losing confidence in each other and/or Pep. Something is terribly amiss for us to put in a shocking performance yesterday and others too.

Pep is sticking to his guns and sometimes you have to be more flexible. I'd rather Kompany was sidelined until he can prove he is completely injury free. We wasted a substitution last night (not that it would have made any difference). Otamendi is a clown just diving in. Stones has started to do it too. Kolarov is back to being a liability. If Pep says that he'll play the kids if first teamers aren't working hard enough etc. then we should expect to see Maffeo, Angelino and Tosin play at the weekend. Won't happen. All talk.

So, are you agreeing with my article where Martin Samuel said that some of the players just aren't good enough for what Pep wants to achieve?

Maybe Pep isn't good enough for what our owners want to achieve...

Sane will I am sure come good Guardiola saw a lot of him in his( sane's )1st season in the Bundesliga last season and was suitably impressed to go after him. That tells me that there is a lot more to come from the 20 year old who also broke thru into The German national team. He arrived injured & will take time to adjust but really he has had what 2 or 3 starts the rest from the bench I know we all want an improvement in results but I feel we should be showing a bit of patience especially with the new arrivals & peps preferred way of playing. Yes out of Frustration I was cursing stones on Sunday  so much so my wife had to shut the living room doors so she didn't have to listen to my swearing & cursing. But in the cold light of day Pep will be here for the minimum 3 years unless something drastic happens like relegation. So we will get a lot more of these sort of performances until he gets the players he wants to play to the system he wants.

Why could these very players play Pep's system well enough to win the first 10 games and then resort to a lot of hoofball? I honestly didn't see much of Pep's system last night. Or against Spurs.

Topdawg wrote:Maybe Pep isn't good enough for what our owners want to achieve...

WTF?????

Come on, you can't honestly be serious???

Look at last season. We were shite but managed 4th in the PL.....the football at times was dire.

The squad on the whole, needed a massive overhaul, we all said that. Pep can't bring in 8 new players at once...it never works. He's bought who was available (young, talented players) that he knows in time, will be able to adapt to his style.

We bought John Stones - who will, in time, be the next England Captain IMO. However, Pep gave Vinny a chance...then Vinny blew it. Maybe he should have been as ruthless as he was with Joe Hart, but I'm guessing binning off your Captain, and one of the worlds best defenders when fit, was a step too far in the first few weeks. Therefore, I think he knows we need another CB now. Otamendi is and always has been, garbage.

Our FB's have posed a problem, as Zaba and Sagna have been consistently injured since the start of the season, meaning rotation and Maffeo, or 3 at the back. I'm sure he'll address that in Jan or in the summer.

Sane needs time to bed in, Gundogan hasn't set the PL alight, but is coming back after a serious knee injury. Gabriel Jesus will arrive in January to bolster the attack. Aguero, being Aguero, started off well, then off he goes to get injured on International duty - again!

KDB has been injured as well.

Sterling and Fernandinho have been the two players that have been consistent performers for us.

We've gifted teams goals which has led to us without a win in 6 games....3 draws, 3 defeats, not 6 losses.

I don;t think we can judge last night's performance as a yard stick for our season so far. United were shite as well - except for 15 mins after HT. They brought in 2 'allegedly' world class players on £600k pw in Zlatan and Pogba....on the whole, they were shite, playing against Maffeo and Garcia, two kids from our academy.

The EFL Cup is the lowest of our priorities and rightly so. The PL is the bread n butter and a good run in the CL is a must....therefore, going out to our rival isn't the end of the world. One less midweek game x5 to play in the future, especially with our injury situation.

Pep is not going to change his way. He's said that time and time again. None of us at the start of the season expected us to blow every PL team away, win the CL, win a cup....but after the first 10 games, we all thought "hmmm, this is good"....yet Pep kept on saying "it will take time, we won;t win every game and we need time this season". Now all of a sudden, he's what the United fans call him..."a fraud"...."found out"...."not good enough for the PL"......

Jesus, let;s have a bit of perspective here. We're top of the PL. 2nd in a tough CL group and still with the FA Cup and a new player or two to arrive in January.

Give him time....we've just had too many players getting injured or losing form at the same time - but that'll change. I'd rather us have this shitty patch now AND STILL BE TOP OF THE LEAGUE, rather than in Feb/March when we're 2nd or 3rd and 2/3 points off the top.

Have some faith.

it took our owners 6 years to get him they are hardly going to ditch him now. Agreed with everything you said blue a bit of perspective & patience needed.

the thing that keeps us optimistic is that we expect to see light at the end of the tunnel. I thought we'd get better as the season went on (logically, we should). But I honestly think we are getting worse.

Did you watch Liverpool play the night before? They had 2nd teamers and kids playing too but they kept their identity the same.

And there you have it dawg Liverpool have had the 3/4 of a season with klopp last year plus a whole pre season & now they are bearing the fruits of their labour the same with spurs & Pochettino, that alone makes me more than optimistic.

AND NO EUROPEAN FOOTBALL MIDWEEK ...so Klopp's got all week to train with the team.....and they're still below us in the league and not in the CL.

That's not too bad if we're top with all of our distractions and injuries, but the smiley media darling's team isn't topping the PL table.