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Good read by Gary Neville
4 posters
Page 1 of 1
Good read by Gary Neville
by blueboy Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:25 am
This Sunday is a huge day in football with historically the biggest game in England between Liverpool and Manchester United and the Clasico matching the best in Spain. Setting out the four starting XIs, you would be hard pushed to get one outfield player from the Liverpool-Man Utd game into the Barcelona-Real Madrid match that evening.
Which is a sad indictment. When you tot up the money invested by Liverpool and Manchester United, spending power is not the chief cause of the Premier League’s slide in Europe, even if the Real Madrid and Barcelona attacking trios are so superior. Karim Benzema, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale on one hand, and Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez and Neymar on the other.
I came out of the Barcelona-Manchester City game thinking that Premier League clubs can’t go on like this. At the airport, City fans asked – “Were we that bad, or were Barcelona that good?” The answer was: “both.”
City are a good side. They have won two of the last three Premier League titles. Yet, when we line up our clubs in a discussion about top-class football, we are way below the peak. Only Chelsea are better-equipped to win in Europe than they showed by going out to Paris Saint-Germain.
Being in Barcelona offered a new experience for me. On one level It was magical, and here’s why.
Twenty-five minutes in, I remember saying: Man City are holding their own. Not playing brilliantly or controlling the game, but managing Barcelona. For the next 20 minutes I was taken to a place I had never been, certainly as a commentator.
Watching games I always think analytically. How a threat can be dealt with or a change made; how a team can win. I’m always registering the mood; whether one defence is on top, or an interesting duel is developing in midfield. For 20 minutes in Barcelona, though, I felt I was back in a sweet shop as a kid.
I’ll go further and say I’ve never felt that way in a football stadium. I’m referring to the 20 minutes Messi produced before half-time, which were out of this world. In the commentary box I exhausted my vocabulary of descriptive terms, even using the word ‘barbaric.’ It was certainly scandalous. Special. I just found myself unable to focus on the more detailed aspects of the game.
Lionel Messi was spellbinding against Manchester City in the Champions League
Messi made all my usual calculations irrelevant. In that moment I was pulled away from thinking about City’s defensive deficiencies, the space that was opening up in midfield, the fact that Manuel Pellegrini’s team were not creating chances. I was taken to that utopia others talk about. And I have never been a football ‘purist’ who looks for the beauty in a game.
My interest has always been with the team performance, the collective effort, and not letting one individual dominate 11 opponents. I always believed there was a way to stop someone. An answer.
Sure, in my playing days we made special plans for exceptional players. We made them for Zinedine Zidane or Thierry Henry. Or Cristiano Ronaldo for Portugal. But for 20 minutes before half time in Barcelona it felt as if there was no answer. You were watching something beyond superlatives. An incredible passage of play.
As Messi took City apart, though, we were witnessing the demise of English football in Europe this season, and my thoughts soon turned to that. It almost needed City to lose 5-0 to force us to face our problems.
In this round of 16 I watched the Arsenal-Monaco home leg, the Chelsea-PSG game and Barcelona v Man City. In those games I saw only five English outfield players. So we have arrived at a position where an enormous amount of money is being spent in the Premier League to accumulate players - yet no-one is happy, because the clubs are not getting value for their buck, and the home production line is falling short.
Watching Premier League games I’m still enthused, still entertained, but at times I despair when I judge them alongside the Champions League matches I see midweek. Most elite European teams are better organized and physically better – which is a scary one – and are certainly better technically.
We talk about intensity and aggression and toughness in English football. Stop saying English football is ‘tough.’ Jordi Alba, the Barcelona left-back, is as aggressive as hell. He would tackle anything. So would Javier Mascherano. We see Thiago Silva and David Luiz smashing balls into the net with their heads. Look at Barcelona’s determination to win the ball back. We must stop hiding behind the idea of our ‘toughness’.
David Luiz scored the decisive goal for PSG against Chelsea
In periods of uncertainty in games, too, the players at those European clubs are far better at adapting. Tottenham, last Sunday against Manchester United, had a problem with Marouane Fellaini, and where Ashley Young was playing, but there was no player adaptability on the pitch itself. Too often players have to wait until half-time when the coaches can get hold of them.
Player thinking is really poor. Problem solving is really poor. I have been appalled in the last season or two by some of the defending, collectively. In that respect Brendan Rodgers deserves great respect for reversing what was a negative trend towards poor defending by Liverpool. Even last season, when they were challenging for the title.
Now, they have much better resilience and defensive organization. Across the board, though, it is nowhere near good enough. Andres Iniesta was constantly taking the ball off City players. Barcelona’s instinct is – we have to win the ball back as soon as we lose it.
Sounds simple, but we are caught between having players who think they are too good to go and retrieve possession, and those who think just getting behind the ball is sufficient. Three or four yards off an opponent is not close enough. It’s a physical issue, a mentality issue and, with some, a question of willingness and desire.
Messi was probably unstoppable on Wednesday night, but I did wonder whether there was something those Man City players might have tried as a destroying tactic. I was thinking – slow the game down, break it up, think on your feet. But playing in the Premier League is like being on the Waltzer. You’re spinning around, it’s exciting, but you come off dizzy, and it’s hard to know whether what you just saw meant anything.
Steven Gerrard celebrates after scoring at Old Trafford
Liverpool v Man Utd will be full of entertainment, the fans will be up for it, the atmosphere will be great, it will capture our imagination. Relate it to the Clasico later in the day, though, and it will come a distant second, in terms of the technical and tactical aspects.
Is this cyclical or a pattern? I hope it’s only a phase. Yet recruitment is becoming a huge topic of concern for English clubs. The modern game is controlled by the big overseas agents. There are no prominent English ones I can think of. We are being used as mugs by middle-men who will happily ship over to England the talent they want to send while the prime stock is pushed into other clubs where they have better connections, and where the players would prefer to go.
We are not dominating the super-agent business – and I do detect a link. Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United have been principled, historically, in their use of agents, but these days we are having to pay high, high prices for players who left the selling club reluctantly. Mesut Ozil and Angel di Maria are examples.
Meanwhile we are forking out very good money for average, and extravagant money for good. But we’re still not getting the true elite. And if we do get them, they end up wanting to go back to Barcelona or Real Madrid.
The Premier League will not be happy with these trends. Nor will Sheikh Mansour at Man City, or Arsenal’s owners. There are probably a lot of unhappy people out there. We have to come out of this.
When the national team is not getting to the later phases of tournaments, and Premier League clubs are going out in the last 16 of the Champions League and the Europa League (Everton), it is incredibly damaging to our redibility in world football, and we have to arrest it quickly. It requires a joint-effort on all the issues I have mentioned – and more.
What we are left with, and what makes me so excited about being at Anfield on Sunday, is entertainment. Our last big card is entertainment, and we play it brilliantly, but we need much more than that beyond these shores.
Which is a sad indictment. When you tot up the money invested by Liverpool and Manchester United, spending power is not the chief cause of the Premier League’s slide in Europe, even if the Real Madrid and Barcelona attacking trios are so superior. Karim Benzema, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale on one hand, and Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez and Neymar on the other.
I came out of the Barcelona-Manchester City game thinking that Premier League clubs can’t go on like this. At the airport, City fans asked – “Were we that bad, or were Barcelona that good?” The answer was: “both.”
City are a good side. They have won two of the last three Premier League titles. Yet, when we line up our clubs in a discussion about top-class football, we are way below the peak. Only Chelsea are better-equipped to win in Europe than they showed by going out to Paris Saint-Germain.
Being in Barcelona offered a new experience for me. On one level It was magical, and here’s why.
Twenty-five minutes in, I remember saying: Man City are holding their own. Not playing brilliantly or controlling the game, but managing Barcelona. For the next 20 minutes I was taken to a place I had never been, certainly as a commentator.
Watching games I always think analytically. How a threat can be dealt with or a change made; how a team can win. I’m always registering the mood; whether one defence is on top, or an interesting duel is developing in midfield. For 20 minutes in Barcelona, though, I felt I was back in a sweet shop as a kid.
I’ll go further and say I’ve never felt that way in a football stadium. I’m referring to the 20 minutes Messi produced before half-time, which were out of this world. In the commentary box I exhausted my vocabulary of descriptive terms, even using the word ‘barbaric.’ It was certainly scandalous. Special. I just found myself unable to focus on the more detailed aspects of the game.
Lionel Messi was spellbinding against Manchester City in the Champions League
Messi made all my usual calculations irrelevant. In that moment I was pulled away from thinking about City’s defensive deficiencies, the space that was opening up in midfield, the fact that Manuel Pellegrini’s team were not creating chances. I was taken to that utopia others talk about. And I have never been a football ‘purist’ who looks for the beauty in a game.
My interest has always been with the team performance, the collective effort, and not letting one individual dominate 11 opponents. I always believed there was a way to stop someone. An answer.
Sure, in my playing days we made special plans for exceptional players. We made them for Zinedine Zidane or Thierry Henry. Or Cristiano Ronaldo for Portugal. But for 20 minutes before half time in Barcelona it felt as if there was no answer. You were watching something beyond superlatives. An incredible passage of play.
As Messi took City apart, though, we were witnessing the demise of English football in Europe this season, and my thoughts soon turned to that. It almost needed City to lose 5-0 to force us to face our problems.
In this round of 16 I watched the Arsenal-Monaco home leg, the Chelsea-PSG game and Barcelona v Man City. In those games I saw only five English outfield players. So we have arrived at a position where an enormous amount of money is being spent in the Premier League to accumulate players - yet no-one is happy, because the clubs are not getting value for their buck, and the home production line is falling short.
Watching Premier League games I’m still enthused, still entertained, but at times I despair when I judge them alongside the Champions League matches I see midweek. Most elite European teams are better organized and physically better – which is a scary one – and are certainly better technically.
We talk about intensity and aggression and toughness in English football. Stop saying English football is ‘tough.’ Jordi Alba, the Barcelona left-back, is as aggressive as hell. He would tackle anything. So would Javier Mascherano. We see Thiago Silva and David Luiz smashing balls into the net with their heads. Look at Barcelona’s determination to win the ball back. We must stop hiding behind the idea of our ‘toughness’.
David Luiz scored the decisive goal for PSG against Chelsea
In periods of uncertainty in games, too, the players at those European clubs are far better at adapting. Tottenham, last Sunday against Manchester United, had a problem with Marouane Fellaini, and where Ashley Young was playing, but there was no player adaptability on the pitch itself. Too often players have to wait until half-time when the coaches can get hold of them.
Player thinking is really poor. Problem solving is really poor. I have been appalled in the last season or two by some of the defending, collectively. In that respect Brendan Rodgers deserves great respect for reversing what was a negative trend towards poor defending by Liverpool. Even last season, when they were challenging for the title.
Now, they have much better resilience and defensive organization. Across the board, though, it is nowhere near good enough. Andres Iniesta was constantly taking the ball off City players. Barcelona’s instinct is – we have to win the ball back as soon as we lose it.
Sounds simple, but we are caught between having players who think they are too good to go and retrieve possession, and those who think just getting behind the ball is sufficient. Three or four yards off an opponent is not close enough. It’s a physical issue, a mentality issue and, with some, a question of willingness and desire.
Messi was probably unstoppable on Wednesday night, but I did wonder whether there was something those Man City players might have tried as a destroying tactic. I was thinking – slow the game down, break it up, think on your feet. But playing in the Premier League is like being on the Waltzer. You’re spinning around, it’s exciting, but you come off dizzy, and it’s hard to know whether what you just saw meant anything.
Steven Gerrard celebrates after scoring at Old Trafford
Liverpool v Man Utd will be full of entertainment, the fans will be up for it, the atmosphere will be great, it will capture our imagination. Relate it to the Clasico later in the day, though, and it will come a distant second, in terms of the technical and tactical aspects.
Is this cyclical or a pattern? I hope it’s only a phase. Yet recruitment is becoming a huge topic of concern for English clubs. The modern game is controlled by the big overseas agents. There are no prominent English ones I can think of. We are being used as mugs by middle-men who will happily ship over to England the talent they want to send while the prime stock is pushed into other clubs where they have better connections, and where the players would prefer to go.
We are not dominating the super-agent business – and I do detect a link. Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United have been principled, historically, in their use of agents, but these days we are having to pay high, high prices for players who left the selling club reluctantly. Mesut Ozil and Angel di Maria are examples.
Meanwhile we are forking out very good money for average, and extravagant money for good. But we’re still not getting the true elite. And if we do get them, they end up wanting to go back to Barcelona or Real Madrid.
The Premier League will not be happy with these trends. Nor will Sheikh Mansour at Man City, or Arsenal’s owners. There are probably a lot of unhappy people out there. We have to come out of this.
When the national team is not getting to the later phases of tournaments, and Premier League clubs are going out in the last 16 of the Champions League and the Europa League (Everton), it is incredibly damaging to our redibility in world football, and we have to arrest it quickly. It requires a joint-effort on all the issues I have mentioned – and more.
What we are left with, and what makes me so excited about being at Anfield on Sunday, is entertainment. Our last big card is entertainment, and we play it brilliantly, but we need much more than that beyond these shores.
blueboy- Legend
- Posts : 25330
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by shakencity Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:14 am
This is something we have discussed in the past....and we are no further on from then, in fact we are probably further back.
Until the FA/PL get together to address the problem with English football and the National team, our PL and National teams will continue to struggle in the big tournaments. Whether you like the National team or not, the money generated within the PL is ultimately killing it.....and grass roots football along the way, but they don't seem to give 2 shits about it.
Everyone in England can see it....and i mean everyone (pundits, players, managers, fans, the FA/PL) but we continue to do fuck all about it.
Good read bytheway and sadly very true.
Until the FA/PL get together to address the problem with English football and the National team, our PL and National teams will continue to struggle in the big tournaments. Whether you like the National team or not, the money generated within the PL is ultimately killing it.....and grass roots football along the way, but they don't seem to give 2 shits about it.
Everyone in England can see it....and i mean everyone (pundits, players, managers, fans, the FA/PL) but we continue to do fuck all about it.
Good read bytheway and sadly very true.
shakencity- Cult Hero
- Posts : 8743
Age : 53
Location : Bury
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by Topdawg Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:52 am
Why can't they find a way to have some sort of break in the season? The only breaks some teams get is when they are knocked out of a cup competition. The more successful you are in the cups, the harder the season is for you.
Start off by making the league Cup semis one leg rather than two even though it won't affect everyone, it's a starting point.
Keep the boxing day and NYD fixtures but don't squeeze an extra game in between. Make sure that you don't penalise successful clubs by making them play 9 games in January.
Prioritise the CL so clubs have some breathing space before games and don't let tv dictate too much. City are in Barcelona on Wednesday night and then have the early Saturday game at the weekend. That isn't right. We should have played on Sunday.
We can make small changes to our structure and that can bring in some recuperation time. Maybe start the season one week earlier and finish one week later. That buys us two weeks to find that time to rest.
Start off by making the league Cup semis one leg rather than two even though it won't affect everyone, it's a starting point.
Keep the boxing day and NYD fixtures but don't squeeze an extra game in between. Make sure that you don't penalise successful clubs by making them play 9 games in January.
Prioritise the CL so clubs have some breathing space before games and don't let tv dictate too much. City are in Barcelona on Wednesday night and then have the early Saturday game at the weekend. That isn't right. We should have played on Sunday.
We can make small changes to our structure and that can bring in some recuperation time. Maybe start the season one week earlier and finish one week later. That buys us two weeks to find that time to rest.
Topdawg- Legend
- Posts : 26195
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by blueboy Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:21 am
2 legged semi's are just ridiculous....there's no need for replays in cup competitions either. Extra time and penalties. I know some smaller clubs get the opportunity of a replay - but it doesn't happen loads, most of the time there's a winner.
But, as mentioned, it's all about the money...and that's the PL for you, the one's we are trying to get to change how they go about things.
But, as mentioned, it's all about the money...and that's the PL for you, the one's we are trying to get to change how they go about things.
blueboy- Legend
- Posts : 25330
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by Topdawg Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:25 am
They should consult with the clubs and then at least make some small changes for starters. I'd say, if there was no world cup in the summer, start the season one week earlier. Make sure that clubs have at least 3 free days before and after CL games. Wed-Sat is not fair.
Topdawg- Legend
- Posts : 26195
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by blueboy Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:00 pm
On the back of me posting this article, it got me thinking about the PL and other leagues around Europe - and just whether the PL is so far behind and the reasons why.
I started by asking the simple question: Which is the best league in European football? To answer that is extremely difficult. It's also fluid in respect that it's cyclical. Let's take the top 5 leagues:
PL
La Liga
Ligue 1
Budesliga
Serie A
Let's then take the winners of the CL and the runner up for the past 10 years, winners first/runners up:
2013-14 -Real/Athletic M
2012-13 - Bayern/Dortmund
2011-12 - Chelsea/Bayern
2010-11 - Barca/Man U
2009-10 - Inter M/Bayern
2008-9 - Barca/Man U
2007-8 - Man U/Chelsea
2006-7 - AC Milan/Liverpool
2005-6 - Barca/Arsenal
2004-5 - Liverpool/AC Milan
Now if you take those teams over the past 10 years, they add up to this:
PL Winners - 3
La Liga Winners - 4
Serie A Winners - 2
Bundesliga Winners - 1
Ligue 1 - 0
PL Runners Up - 5
La Liga Runners Up - 1
Serie A Runners Up - 1
Bundesliga - 3
Ligue 1 - 0
So for me, Ligue 1 is a piss poor league when it comes to European football.
On average, over the last 10 years, the PL has seen more winners and runners up than any other European League. 8 in total, compared to the next best which is La Liga with 5.
I've read lots of articles today talking about how poor the PL is, how we are completely inept at winning against top quality opposition in Europe....well for me, the facts don't bare that out.
My next question was this: How competitive are the Leagues?
So, I looked at each Leagues table to see who was in the top 10 of each League, how far away were the leaders, how many of the 'top' clubs from the previous 10 years are at the top/near the top...gaps in points from the leaders to the number 10 placed team to see if there was any further qualitative and quantitative data.
So, if we take the PL to start with:
Chelsea 67
City 61
Arsenal 60
United 59
Liverpool 54
Soton 53
Spurs 53
Swansea 43
WHU 42
Stoke 42
A difference of 19 points between 1st and 10th, but 13 points between the top 5.
La Liga:
Barca 68
Real 64
Valencia 60
A Madrid 59
Sevilla 55
Villareal 49
Malaga 44
A Bilbao 39
R Sociedad 36
C Vigo 35
A difference of 33 points between 1st and 10th and 14 points between the top 5.
Bundesliga:
Bayern 64
Wolfsburg 54
Borrusia M 47
Bayern Leve 45
Schalke 39
FC Augsburg 38
TSG 1899 37
Frankfurt 34
W Bremen 34
B Dortmund 33
So, a difference of 31 points between 1st and 10th place and 25 points from 1st to 5th.
Serie A:
Juventus 67
Roma 53
Lazio 52
Sampdoria 48
Napoli 47
Fiorentina 46
Torino 39
AC Milan 38
Genoa 37
I Milan 37
So, a difference of 30 points between 1st and 10th and 20 points between 1st and 5th.
Ligue 1:
PSG 59
Lyon 58
Marseille 57
Monaco 53
St Etienne 52
Bordeaux 48
Montpellier 45
Lille 41
Nantes 40
Guingamp 39
So, a total of 20 points between 1st and 10th and a difference of 7 points between 1st and 5th.
So what we have is as follows when it comes to a league that is competitive:
PL - 5 teams all in with a shout of the title.
La Liga - 4 possible teams in with a shout, but in reality, only 3.
Bundesliga - only one team, possibly 2 in with a shout barring a collapse by Bayern.
Serie A - only 1 team in with a shout.
Ligue 1 - 5 teams still in with a shout of the title.
Teams left in the CL quarter final:
Barca (Spain)
Real (Spain)
Bayern (Germany)
PSG (France)
Atletico M (Spain)
Porto (Portugal) - out of interest, Porto are 2nd, 2 points behind Benfica and 6 points ahead of Sporting. In their league the difference from 1-5 is 25 points and 1-10 = 32 points.
Monaco (France)
Juventus (Italy)
The next question was: Do any of these leagues have a winter break and if so, for how long?
PL - 0 - no teams left in CL
La Liga - 17 days - 3 teams left
Bundesliga - 39 days - 1 team left
Serie A - 21 days - 1 team left
Ligue 1 - 20 days - 2 teams left
Is this an issue?
Next question: Is money spent on players having an effect? CL last 8 only plus our last 16 qualifiers spend last summer and January 2015.
Chelsea - £118.3m
City - £117.5m
Arsenal - £95.6m
Barcelona - £138.6m
Real - £83m
At Madrid - £12.6m
Juventus - £23m
Porto - £6.1m
PSG - £0
Monaco - £0
Bayern - £5m
So....as for spending power, we've got it and spent the most out of the 3 PL teams in the last 16, but none of us went through. Compare that to the likes of PSG/Monaco/Bayern who between all 3 spent £5m!!! Does this say anything?
Maybe they already had fantastic teams the season before - but none were in the CL final last season, but are through to the last 8.
So, I'm really not sure what the stats I've looked at tell us about where we stand as a League against the rest of Europe's elite....what it does tell me is this:
We have had more finalists and winners combined of the CL, than any other country over the past 10 years.
It also tells me that that a winter break may help our teams for when it gets to the business end of the CL last 16.
Money doesn't seem to be an issue to get you into the last 8, but it 'may' help when it comes to the last 4, last 2....but lately, the likes of At Madrid have done exceptionally well with no money to be runners up last season and in the last 8 this season and still in with a shout of La Liga title again....and why is that???
It also tells me that our league is very competitive, but it it's always the same 6 protagonists and ALL have spent vast amounts of money - but TBF, we've actually been very successful over the past 10 years in Europe - so are the other Leagues so much better than ours, or has it been a poor season all round in the CL?
Is a rest needed?
Is it down to money?
Style of play, as the PL is unlike any other in Europe with it's pace?
Watching the games yesterday, the Liverpool/United game was a great watch, 100% effort and commitment at 100mph....watching the Barca/Real game was nothing short of a bore-fest!
Hope it was worth the effort? Answers on a postcard!
I started by asking the simple question: Which is the best league in European football? To answer that is extremely difficult. It's also fluid in respect that it's cyclical. Let's take the top 5 leagues:
PL
La Liga
Ligue 1
Budesliga
Serie A
Let's then take the winners of the CL and the runner up for the past 10 years, winners first/runners up:
2013-14 -Real/Athletic M
2012-13 - Bayern/Dortmund
2011-12 - Chelsea/Bayern
2010-11 - Barca/Man U
2009-10 - Inter M/Bayern
2008-9 - Barca/Man U
2007-8 - Man U/Chelsea
2006-7 - AC Milan/Liverpool
2005-6 - Barca/Arsenal
2004-5 - Liverpool/AC Milan
Now if you take those teams over the past 10 years, they add up to this:
PL Winners - 3
La Liga Winners - 4
Serie A Winners - 2
Bundesliga Winners - 1
Ligue 1 - 0
PL Runners Up - 5
La Liga Runners Up - 1
Serie A Runners Up - 1
Bundesliga - 3
Ligue 1 - 0
So for me, Ligue 1 is a piss poor league when it comes to European football.
On average, over the last 10 years, the PL has seen more winners and runners up than any other European League. 8 in total, compared to the next best which is La Liga with 5.
I've read lots of articles today talking about how poor the PL is, how we are completely inept at winning against top quality opposition in Europe....well for me, the facts don't bare that out.
My next question was this: How competitive are the Leagues?
So, I looked at each Leagues table to see who was in the top 10 of each League, how far away were the leaders, how many of the 'top' clubs from the previous 10 years are at the top/near the top...gaps in points from the leaders to the number 10 placed team to see if there was any further qualitative and quantitative data.
So, if we take the PL to start with:
Chelsea 67
City 61
Arsenal 60
United 59
Liverpool 54
Soton 53
Spurs 53
Swansea 43
WHU 42
Stoke 42
A difference of 19 points between 1st and 10th, but 13 points between the top 5.
La Liga:
Barca 68
Real 64
Valencia 60
A Madrid 59
Sevilla 55
Villareal 49
Malaga 44
A Bilbao 39
R Sociedad 36
C Vigo 35
A difference of 33 points between 1st and 10th and 14 points between the top 5.
Bundesliga:
Bayern 64
Wolfsburg 54
Borrusia M 47
Bayern Leve 45
Schalke 39
FC Augsburg 38
TSG 1899 37
Frankfurt 34
W Bremen 34
B Dortmund 33
So, a difference of 31 points between 1st and 10th place and 25 points from 1st to 5th.
Serie A:
Juventus 67
Roma 53
Lazio 52
Sampdoria 48
Napoli 47
Fiorentina 46
Torino 39
AC Milan 38
Genoa 37
I Milan 37
So, a difference of 30 points between 1st and 10th and 20 points between 1st and 5th.
Ligue 1:
PSG 59
Lyon 58
Marseille 57
Monaco 53
St Etienne 52
Bordeaux 48
Montpellier 45
Lille 41
Nantes 40
Guingamp 39
So, a total of 20 points between 1st and 10th and a difference of 7 points between 1st and 5th.
So what we have is as follows when it comes to a league that is competitive:
PL - 5 teams all in with a shout of the title.
La Liga - 4 possible teams in with a shout, but in reality, only 3.
Bundesliga - only one team, possibly 2 in with a shout barring a collapse by Bayern.
Serie A - only 1 team in with a shout.
Ligue 1 - 5 teams still in with a shout of the title.
Teams left in the CL quarter final:
Barca (Spain)
Real (Spain)
Bayern (Germany)
PSG (France)
Atletico M (Spain)
Porto (Portugal) - out of interest, Porto are 2nd, 2 points behind Benfica and 6 points ahead of Sporting. In their league the difference from 1-5 is 25 points and 1-10 = 32 points.
Monaco (France)
Juventus (Italy)
The next question was: Do any of these leagues have a winter break and if so, for how long?
PL - 0 - no teams left in CL
La Liga - 17 days - 3 teams left
Bundesliga - 39 days - 1 team left
Serie A - 21 days - 1 team left
Ligue 1 - 20 days - 2 teams left
Is this an issue?
Next question: Is money spent on players having an effect? CL last 8 only plus our last 16 qualifiers spend last summer and January 2015.
Chelsea - £118.3m
City - £117.5m
Arsenal - £95.6m
Barcelona - £138.6m
Real - £83m
At Madrid - £12.6m
Juventus - £23m
Porto - £6.1m
PSG - £0
Monaco - £0
Bayern - £5m
So....as for spending power, we've got it and spent the most out of the 3 PL teams in the last 16, but none of us went through. Compare that to the likes of PSG/Monaco/Bayern who between all 3 spent £5m!!! Does this say anything?
Maybe they already had fantastic teams the season before - but none were in the CL final last season, but are through to the last 8.
So, I'm really not sure what the stats I've looked at tell us about where we stand as a League against the rest of Europe's elite....what it does tell me is this:
We have had more finalists and winners combined of the CL, than any other country over the past 10 years.
It also tells me that that a winter break may help our teams for when it gets to the business end of the CL last 16.
Money doesn't seem to be an issue to get you into the last 8, but it 'may' help when it comes to the last 4, last 2....but lately, the likes of At Madrid have done exceptionally well with no money to be runners up last season and in the last 8 this season and still in with a shout of La Liga title again....and why is that???
It also tells me that our league is very competitive, but it it's always the same 6 protagonists and ALL have spent vast amounts of money - but TBF, we've actually been very successful over the past 10 years in Europe - so are the other Leagues so much better than ours, or has it been a poor season all round in the CL?
Is a rest needed?
Is it down to money?
Style of play, as the PL is unlike any other in Europe with it's pace?
Watching the games yesterday, the Liverpool/United game was a great watch, 100% effort and commitment at 100mph....watching the Barca/Real game was nothing short of a bore-fest!
Hope it was worth the effort? Answers on a postcard!
blueboy- Legend
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Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by Topdawg Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:50 pm
I actually enjoyed both games. I;m not sure if your numbers are net spend, but didn't PSG buy Luiz for £40M+?
You could say 10 years ago is too long but, even looking at the last 5 years, the PL does ok.
% years ago, we wouldn't have said anything about a winter break when the PL clubs were sweeping all before them in the CL (at least one finalist for 5 seasons).
I think there is something to do with cycles. The Italians will be back soon enough, even though they can't compete in terms of money.
I guess what's happened over the last 5 years is that Bayern, Madrid and Barca have got much better as their better players matured. Utd and Chelsea have slipped down as their better players just got too old and were not replaced with younger players that improved. They just stuck with the old guard a bit too long.
Ferdinand, Vidic, Scholes, Giggs, Evra, Fletcher were all part of Utd's squad for the last CL final they appeared in and they all hung around until last season or so.
In that final Barca had Alves, Masha, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and most of them have improved in the last 5 years.
You could say 10 years ago is too long but, even looking at the last 5 years, the PL does ok.
% years ago, we wouldn't have said anything about a winter break when the PL clubs were sweeping all before them in the CL (at least one finalist for 5 seasons).
I think there is something to do with cycles. The Italians will be back soon enough, even though they can't compete in terms of money.
I guess what's happened over the last 5 years is that Bayern, Madrid and Barca have got much better as their better players matured. Utd and Chelsea have slipped down as their better players just got too old and were not replaced with younger players that improved. They just stuck with the old guard a bit too long.
Ferdinand, Vidic, Scholes, Giggs, Evra, Fletcher were all part of Utd's squad for the last CL final they appeared in and they all hung around until last season or so.
In that final Barca had Alves, Masha, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and most of them have improved in the last 5 years.
Topdawg- Legend
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Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by blueboy Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:59 pm
The spend were taken from a European website...yes, PSG spent that on Luiz...maybe they were net spends, but you get my point.
It'll be interesting next season with Barca having a transfer embargo and ourselves and possibly PSG being de-restricted by FFP.
PSG could be a team to be reckoned with next season in the CL...problem is for them, Ibrahimovich getting towards the end of his career.
Real have the likes of Ronaldo and Pepe getting into their 30's. Barca with Ineista and Xavi getting older and not being able to replace the likes of Alves and Pique....
This summer is going to be very important for us when it comes to deciding whether we make wholesale changes for the future - in the hope it sets the foundations for us constantly challenging for the PL, whilst also being able to take advantage over the likes of Bayern/Barc/Real in the CL with their ageing squads and restrictions on buying players.
The money, IF that's one of the reasons (even though I'm not sure it is) needs to spent very, very well in the summer.
It'll be interesting next season with Barca having a transfer embargo and ourselves and possibly PSG being de-restricted by FFP.
PSG could be a team to be reckoned with next season in the CL...problem is for them, Ibrahimovich getting towards the end of his career.
Real have the likes of Ronaldo and Pepe getting into their 30's. Barca with Ineista and Xavi getting older and not being able to replace the likes of Alves and Pique....
This summer is going to be very important for us when it comes to deciding whether we make wholesale changes for the future - in the hope it sets the foundations for us constantly challenging for the PL, whilst also being able to take advantage over the likes of Bayern/Barc/Real in the CL with their ageing squads and restrictions on buying players.
The money, IF that's one of the reasons (even though I'm not sure it is) needs to spent very, very well in the summer.
blueboy- Legend
- Posts : 25330
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by Topdawg Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:04 pm
Real will want to spend big if, as looks likely, they don't win their league especially if they fail by 7 or 8 points.
PSG are knocking on the door. Maybe one big star player will make enough of a difference to them to make that final step.
We, as we all know too well, are miles away from competing at the top level.
PSG are knocking on the door. Maybe one big star player will make enough of a difference to them to make that final step.
We, as we all know too well, are miles away from competing at the top level.
Topdawg- Legend
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Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by blueboy Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:32 pm
Yeah, but as my post indicates....why?
blueboy- Legend
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Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by Topdawg Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:52 pm
I think it's a mental thing. All psychological. In the head.
I can guarantee you that if our players were playing for Barca, and their players were playing for City, we'd still get knocked out!
It may sound funny, but maybe the PL is too easy for us. Yes, we still manage to fuck it up, but, when we go to play a really decent team like Madrid or Barca, we look like men against boys.
Watching the match last night, sometimes Madrid had one defender on the ball and everyone else in front of him. And the nearest player was a Barca player. They were comfortable enough on the ball and could pass it around in tight spots. We can do that against the weaker teams, but not the better ones. Rather than play our usual game, we panic a bit and lose our composure.
When I play badminton against a weaker opponent, I can play my shots without worrying about mistakes because I know I'll win anyway. Against a much better player, I make basic errors and get punished for them.
I reckon it's similar for City.
I can guarantee you that if our players were playing for Barca, and their players were playing for City, we'd still get knocked out!
It may sound funny, but maybe the PL is too easy for us. Yes, we still manage to fuck it up, but, when we go to play a really decent team like Madrid or Barca, we look like men against boys.
Watching the match last night, sometimes Madrid had one defender on the ball and everyone else in front of him. And the nearest player was a Barca player. They were comfortable enough on the ball and could pass it around in tight spots. We can do that against the weaker teams, but not the better ones. Rather than play our usual game, we panic a bit and lose our composure.
When I play badminton against a weaker opponent, I can play my shots without worrying about mistakes because I know I'll win anyway. Against a much better player, I make basic errors and get punished for them.
I reckon it's similar for City.
Topdawg- Legend
- Posts : 26195
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by leopold Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:17 pm
Hold on a tick, I think I've spotted it!
Look at what was happening in the CL up until about 5 years ago. We had regular forays into the semis and finals and we even had clubs winning the odd trophy. Then look at the 09/10 season, the first time in 5 years (or possibly more, I'd have to check) that we didn't have a finalist.
What happened in that year? Simple: It was the first summer transfer window under our new owners and we spent BIG.
See, before we got our lucky break, the top four was pretty much a given for United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. They didn't have to try so hard because they were perennially in the top four and there was precious little competition. Come the weekend before a CL game, they'd be able to field a weaker side against whomever they were playing, saving their best players for the tougher midweek game. Granted, they may have ended up throwing away three points, but in the grand scheme it didn't matter, because the gap between 4th and 5th was only surmountable if Spurs were able to mount a strong challenge.
But then we blew the fat end of £300m on players in 2009, thus mounting a serious challenge to their dominance. Suddenly, dropping three points wasn't such a wise idea as we'd be waiting to pick one of them off. Granted, Spurs did it in that season, at our expense, but since then, we've been upsetting the apple cart. And because everyone else has had to toughen up to try and keep their spot, suddenly there's no more "gifts" to teams played in CL week.
Then look at the other leagues. The major players are still in the luxurious positions of being able to get CL places every season regardless, because there's no real competition for their places. So come the week of a CL game, they can field a weaker side in their league and risk a defeat because it ultimately doesn't affect their continued presence in the real money-spinner. Hence the reason Barca got beaten by Malaga the weekend before we played them in the first leg. But in the PL, we've got five teams fighting over four places, the only league in Europe where there's more realistic competitors than places available, and this means none of them can afford to throw the odd game, there's too much at stake.
It appears we may well have ruined football after all...
Look at what was happening in the CL up until about 5 years ago. We had regular forays into the semis and finals and we even had clubs winning the odd trophy. Then look at the 09/10 season, the first time in 5 years (or possibly more, I'd have to check) that we didn't have a finalist.
What happened in that year? Simple: It was the first summer transfer window under our new owners and we spent BIG.
See, before we got our lucky break, the top four was pretty much a given for United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. They didn't have to try so hard because they were perennially in the top four and there was precious little competition. Come the weekend before a CL game, they'd be able to field a weaker side against whomever they were playing, saving their best players for the tougher midweek game. Granted, they may have ended up throwing away three points, but in the grand scheme it didn't matter, because the gap between 4th and 5th was only surmountable if Spurs were able to mount a strong challenge.
But then we blew the fat end of £300m on players in 2009, thus mounting a serious challenge to their dominance. Suddenly, dropping three points wasn't such a wise idea as we'd be waiting to pick one of them off. Granted, Spurs did it in that season, at our expense, but since then, we've been upsetting the apple cart. And because everyone else has had to toughen up to try and keep their spot, suddenly there's no more "gifts" to teams played in CL week.
Then look at the other leagues. The major players are still in the luxurious positions of being able to get CL places every season regardless, because there's no real competition for their places. So come the week of a CL game, they can field a weaker side in their league and risk a defeat because it ultimately doesn't affect their continued presence in the real money-spinner. Hence the reason Barca got beaten by Malaga the weekend before we played them in the first leg. But in the PL, we've got five teams fighting over four places, the only league in Europe where there's more realistic competitors than places available, and this means none of them can afford to throw the odd game, there's too much at stake.
It appears we may well have ruined football after all...
leopold- The Boss
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Age : 53
Location : Manchester
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by Topdawg Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:34 pm
Bloody good point Leo. Not sure if all the facts back you up, but a good theory anyway.
Topdawg- Legend
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Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by shakencity Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:56 am
Sod it leo, i'm going with your theory.
Oh and blue, that was some post mate....i'm guessing you had a slow day yesterday
Oh and blue, that was some post mate....i'm guessing you had a slow day yesterday
shakencity- Cult Hero
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Age : 53
Location : Bury
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by blueboy Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:26 am
leopold wrote:Hold on a tick, I think I've spotted it!
Look at what was happening in the CL up until about 5 years ago. We had regular forays into the semis and finals and we even had clubs winning the odd trophy. Then look at the 09/10 season, the first time in 5 years (or possibly more, I'd have to check) that we didn't have a finalist.
What happened in that year? Simple: It was the first summer transfer window under our new owners and we spent BIG.
See, before we got our lucky break, the top four was pretty much a given for United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. They didn't have to try so hard because they were perennially in the top four and there was precious little competition. Come the weekend before a CL game, they'd be able to field a weaker side against whomever they were playing, saving their best players for the tougher midweek game. Granted, they may have ended up throwing away three points, but in the grand scheme it didn't matter, because the gap between 4th and 5th was only surmountable if Spurs were able to mount a strong challenge.
But then we blew the fat end of £300m on players in 2009, thus mounting a serious challenge to their dominance. Suddenly, dropping three points wasn't such a wise idea as we'd be waiting to pick one of them off. Granted, Spurs did it in that season, at our expense, but since then, we've been upsetting the apple cart. And because everyone else has had to toughen up to try and keep their spot, suddenly there's no more "gifts" to teams played in CL week.
Then look at the other leagues. The major players are still in the luxurious positions of being able to get CL places every season regardless, because there's no real competition for their places. So come the week of a CL game, they can field a weaker side in their league and risk a defeat because it ultimately doesn't affect their continued presence in the real money-spinner. Hence the reason Barca got beaten by Malaga the weekend before we played them in the first leg. But in the PL, we've got five teams fighting over four places, the only league in Europe where there's more realistic competitors than places available, and this means none of them can afford to throw the odd game, there's too much at stake.
It appears we may well have ruined football after all...
Some good points - and maybe that's a contributing factor. So, are you saying is partly due to fatigue/tiredness? If so, would a winter break help? Or, are the PL squads simply not strong enough to be able to field a competitive starting 11 the weekend before a CL game?
If so, that'll be my next task. Look at the teams from the PL and see if there's a trend of fielding weaker teams prior to CL games - and then seeing what the likes of Barca, Monaco, PSG, Porto, At Madrid, Juve did.
We'll get to the bottom of this somehow...don't know how long it'll take!!
blueboy- Legend
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Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by leopold Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:44 am
A winter break wouldn't hurt. Or at least not having such a compacted winter like we do now. There's no reason to shoehorn a game in between Boxing Day and New Years Day as there's only 6 days to play with there as it is.
I also don't think it's a case of PL teams not being strong enough, but instead they used to be able to rest key players, which is now not the case as 3 dropped points can lead to failure to qualify the following season. Maybe one idea is to ensure PL teams in the CL play on Saturday the weekend before, and Sunday the weekend after, to give them a chance. Having to play on the Sunday before and then on Tuesday is unfair, as is playing Wednesday and then Saturday lunchtime. Sky need to be told to butt out on certain fixtures for the good of the league in the PL.
Another option is to scrap FFP. That way, we'd not have to worry, could spend like Chelsea and the rags and that would be 3 teams guaranteed in the CL - and we could all go back to risking 3 points the weekend before a CL game.
I also don't think it's a case of PL teams not being strong enough, but instead they used to be able to rest key players, which is now not the case as 3 dropped points can lead to failure to qualify the following season. Maybe one idea is to ensure PL teams in the CL play on Saturday the weekend before, and Sunday the weekend after, to give them a chance. Having to play on the Sunday before and then on Tuesday is unfair, as is playing Wednesday and then Saturday lunchtime. Sky need to be told to butt out on certain fixtures for the good of the league in the PL.
Another option is to scrap FFP. That way, we'd not have to worry, could spend like Chelsea and the rags and that would be 3 teams guaranteed in the CL - and we could all go back to risking 3 points the weekend before a CL game.
leopold- The Boss
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Location : Manchester
Re: Good read by Gary Neville
by blueboy Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:52 am
Scrapping FFP might happen anyway....not really heard any more from the court case a few weeks ago.
blueboy- Legend
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