Neville vs Neville

So, Phil Neville thinks TLMLF shouldn't be blamed, whilst Gary Neville thinks the opposite. I know who I'd listen to:

Yaya Toure among the 'weeds in the garden' at Manchester City that need to be removed quickly...

Yaya Toure's attacking gifts aren't enough to make up for his defensive deficiencies anymore, said Gary Neville in a scathing attack on the Ivorian following Manchester City's 4-2 derby loss to United.
Manuel Pellegrini's City were poor for all but the opening 15 minutes against Louis van Gaal's side at Old Trafford and Neville, speaking on Sky Sports, is certain big changes are afoot for the club. 
'It's a crossroads for them now,' Neville said as City drifted four points behind their third-placed cross-city rivals who are now one point off Arsenal in second.  

'There is definitely going to be change at Manchester City, whether it's players, the manager, people above. Certainly some players.
'There are some weeds in the garden and you've got to get them out of the changing room pretty quick. You cannot carry passengers.' Neville singled out Toure as an example of the 'weeds' at the Etihad in a scathing attack.
'He does that much for the team in an attacking sense you live with maybe the consequences of that defensively,' he said. 
'But when the balance tips to a point when going forward isn't quite as effective as it once was, you've got to do something different because the defensive side is poor.

'If I was a player in that dressing room looking at him in central midfield thinking you're not chasing back, you're not running around, you're not sprinting for the ball. There might be a physical problem that he cannot do it, let alone if he doesn't want to do it. I think there's definitely going to be some changes.'
Graeme Souness, also on Sky Sports, even suggested the 31-year-old's work when his side doesn't have the ball is a factor in their disappointing Champions League results in recent years.
Neville accused Toure of a 'complete dereliction of (his) duty' when marking Marouane Fellaini and blamed his lack of tracking back for United's third goal from Juan Mata. 

'He cannot play in a two in midfield against an opposition of any quality,' said Neville on Sky Sports. 
'Against maybe one of the lesser teams at home you can put him in there and play with two up top, but against any team of quality you've got to shift him out of that position in the centre of midfield.
'There are too many examples, too much evidence when watching him where he cannot do his job, simple as that. As a central midfield player in the big matches he just cannot do it.' 
Graeme Souness said Toure's become 'a bit of a liability' for City in the past two years, despite being instrumental to their Premier League title win last season. 

'When he is playing and he has the ball at his feet, he is a real threat going forward,' the former Liverpool midfielder said.  
'When they don't have the ball he doesn't want to take part and come back towards his own goal.'
'He just doesn't take part when City have the ball, they're too easy to play against. And that's a problem they've had for the last couple of seasons. And maybe that's one of the big reasons why they've not done as well as they should have done in Europe.' 
Niall Quinn, also on Sky Sports, said bluntly: 'Manchester City lost out today because he was all at sea and didn't do his defensive duties.'
Toure also came in for criticism on Match of the Day 2 for his lack of leadership after he took the captain's armband at half-time.
Trevor Sinclair said: 'He keeps on getting caught in no-mans land, he's not really at it, clipping the heels, and he's literally going through the motions.

'Fellaini has completely outshone him today. He is outnumbered and I'm sure he's frustrated but again he's just going through the motions.'
Picking out on particular aerial duel, which Toure lost, Sinclair said: 'This is nothing to do with ability, that's to do with desire and wanting to take one for the team.'
Sinclair also felt Toure was at fault for Chris Smalling's goal, United's fourth.
'He's got to organise this better,' he said. 'If you're captain of the team you've got to keep that high line, dictate and tell the lads to get in positions and win the ball. They were queuing up on the far stick.'

Phil Neville said: 'The minute they concede a goal and their backs are against the wall, they crumble. They lost their shape, they lost their discipline, they were all over the place.
'There was nobody in there today that said "right, we're going to get two banks of four, hard to beat and actually try to grind out a result".'

That last paragraph kinda sums things up really.

'There was nobody in there today that said "right, we're going to get two banks of four, hard to beat and actually try to grind out a result".'

Why can all the pundits see what's wrong with us, why can all the fans see what's wrong with us....yet our manager hasn't got a friggin clue what's wrong with us?

There's a reason one of them got to see out his career at United and the other shipped out to Everton at the first opportunity

As a player, I fucking hated rat-boy (and I'm sure I'm not alone), but as a pundit, I find it hard to disagree with him. He's spot on about the Bone Idle Fucker. During January, everyone was using the stats of how many games we won with him and without him this season. I'd like to see an updated version of this, because I suspect it makes for a much different story now.

Phil Neville was pointing to the stats that showed how much he moved around on the pitch, and then proceeded to show him ambling about, completely undermining his point! Yeah, so he never stood still for long, but he didn't exactly bust a gut and he didn't even move anywhere of any real use.

Because he's shit? Because last season he was lucky? Because he's stubborn? Because he hasn't got the balls to make big decisions?

Do you honestly think Jose would allow such inept performances from his highest paid player, week in week out - and still pick him?
He's just told Oscar who had a moan about being subbed - don't push it, otherwise you'll be out - and was then dropped for the last two games to the bench.

This Manager hasn't got the balls to drop TLMLF and think purely about the team and the points. He clearly doesn't like upsetting players - and maybe some of the senior players are getting pissed off with it.

Bone Idle Fucker BIF has been a nightmare every since the poor lamb got disrespected at Birthdaycake Gate. As Blue has never tired of saying, we should of got shot in the summer
That performance against the Scum just about summed up BIFs whole season & although he cant solely take the blame his performances attitude and lack of motivation has rubbed off on the rest of the team. If MP wasn't such a dumb fucka he would at least drop him for the rest of the season

Eventually, Mancini had to drop Balotelli. Will Pellegrini do the same with Yaya?

If we played 4-3-2-1 with Yaya and Silva deployed behind Aguero, then Silva and Yaya can be lazier than we'd like as we'd have 3 MFs in front of the defence. You just cannot have Yaya as one of the two CMs in front of the defence.

Did I tell you....I posted in the summer saying we should have sold him when we could?

Vinny plays like he is totally fucked off at the moment. The lack of defensive stability and work rate in front of the back 4 has led to him and his defenders, to step out and make rash challenges, which in turn, has led to us conceding some awful goals this season...and has clearly affected his form.

Does Vinny get pissed off with TLMLF's effort game in game out?

Has he said anything to MP?

Are the other players getting pissed off with it - and it's like a tumour, infesting morale at the club?

I don't know. All I do know is that TLMLF should be ashamed of his efforts this season - not performances, effort. It costs nothing to give 100%....that's the least any professional player should give.

And that's why it's unforgivable.

If Milner, Nasri, Navas or Aguero just jogged on the spot whilst opposition players wandered past you....we'd be up in arms.

Topdawg wrote:Eventually, Mancini had to drop Balotelli. Will Pellegrini do the same with Yaya?

No.  And here's why:  Balotelli was never captain.

This is one thing I don't get and possibly an explanation of why we went so far off the boil in the second half.  Vinny was subbed for Mango and TLBIF was handed the armband.  Why would he get that, other than being the most handsomely paid player?

If I were the manager, I'd have told Vinny to give the armband to Joe, or Zaba, or maybe Jimmy.  Not Serge, because I don't believe in CFs being made captain as they can't see what's going on behind them.  For me, it has to be someone who can see the whole field whilst facing the opposition, and that's the ONLY reason I'd not give it to him.  I definitely wouldn't have given it to that lazy whining useless lump purely on the basis of, how can he be expected to motivate others when he can't even motivate himself?

Yaya should be dropped with immediate effect and another person should be made captain.  I'd personally choose Zaba or Joe for the reason above and for the fact that they're the only ones who show any passion.

blueboy wrote:Did I tell you....I posted in the summer saying we should have sold him when we could?

Did you really?  I must've missed it... 

But I agree.  After the birthday incident, and all that talk of wanting to play for PSG, he should've been sold there and then.  Now, after this shitty season he's had, we'll be lucky to get anyone to take him off our hands.

What, Bobby wants him at Inter?  Let him go.  I'll take him to the airport myself.

On a serious note....

I posted that last year because for me, any player that comes out and disrespects the club/owners/fans/players by making ridiculous comments - like he made, says only one thing:

They want a big money move.

Unfortunately, he'd had such a good season last season, that the club hierarchy were blinded by that, instead of cashing in whilst he'd just put in the season of his career.

No player is bigger than the club and when they, or they allow their agent to make negative and damaging statements about their club, especially as the highest earner, there's no happy ending.

We've seen it with Tevez - and he left. What would we give for his energy and enthusiasm up front right now?

Suarez - made overtures the season before he left and LFC got one more season out of him and nearly won the league.

Bale - made a comment about wanting to play in Spain.....for him, he was sold at the end of the season and Spurs got handsomely paid for it.

IF, the likes of Aguero and Silva were to mention playing back in Spain - then we should sell them immediately, not keep them. Once a player's mind is focussed on a move away - for money, trophies, whatever.....get rid. Their focus will never be 100%.

Thankfully, all we've heard so far from Silva and Aguero is that they want to stay and fight to win a CL....but if that changes in the summer (and it could easily do if we don't get CL and the club doesn't buy BIG), then there's no room for sentiment - sell them both for the best possible price.

I think I was trying to say that last summer - and sadly for us, TLMLF hasn't just been out of form, he's been disgracefully lacking in professional ethos and effort - which makes it even harder to swallow.

blueboy wrote:I posted that last year because for me, any player that comes out and disrespects the club/owners/fans/players by making ridiculous comments - like he made, says only one thing:

They want a big money move.

Yep.  And he should've been given it.  You're right, of course; When a player expresses any sort of dissatisfaction, they become a liability.  He should've gone last season and we'd have got a decent chunk for him.  I can't see that happening now.

I agree with both really, silva was worse than Toure yesterday and Milner went way too wide. As soon as we spread, we went to pot.

So does the Manager see that and do something about it? Nope, once again, stands/sits there and doesn't have any ounce of tactical nous about him to change the situation, guide his players or change the personnel. Useless is putting it mildly.

True, I would have made the Milner change far earlier. It was a shame the Kompany one just had to be made.

The worrying thing with yesterday was the way the team crumbled after a fantastic first 15 minutes. For me, there are rival factions within the squad and a lack of trust there as a consequence.

Changing the manager, fine, that's not too difficult. It's more the overhaul of the squad that worries me. Id get rid of all of the Balkans, Toure and Nasri.

The sad thing is, they still have plenty of ability as the first 15 minutes illustrated. The first against us and we disintegrated. I can't believe how we've lost our balls so quickly.

I agree Melton. I really do believe there is some divide within the dressing room.

Be interesting to know what side the Captain falls on....as he's been woefully out of form and whatever it is, it's clearly effecting him.

I agree with getting rid of the Balkan's...and it goes without saying TLMLF.

As for Nasri....he was our best player at the end of 2014. Suddenly gets dropped and has never been the same since. I think he's one of the better players in the squad - if played correctly.

I hate to say it - but even Zaba looks finished, add to that Clichy, who isn't top class.

A real shake up at the back is needed for me - and masses more pace and energy in MF.

That's 3 new defenders, 2 more MF's and 2 more strikers/attacking MF's.

Can only see us improving massively next season with 6/7 players out and them being replaced with younger, fresher, more hungry players.

Keep Hart, Kompany, Fernandinho, Nasri, Silva, Aguero and Bony out of this squad....the rest on the fringes can fight for their places - Navas, Clichy, Mangala, Zaba, Fernando, DeM.

The only problem for me is the Manager. HE MUST GO...and we must start afresh. As painful as it is, and not the 'holistic' plan that was in place (whatever that was?)....we'll have to bite the bullet on the way this team has been led from the top down and how poor it's been watched over by all concerned, and see where next season brings us.

For me though - there are clear, in-house problems and this Manager has shown he's not strong enough to eradicate them or have the balls to do what's needed.
So he should be relieved of his duties NOW to ensure we get a CL place next season.

If they can't play for Patrick Viera, the shirt and the fans - they can all go for me....as it can't be worse than this gradual decline in form, performances and effort we've seen for the past 3 months.

I agree with Nasri in terms of quality, it's more his friendship with Toure - I think he'll regress if we were to move Toure so may as well move both. Agree about the ones to fight it out as well, although I still have a feeling Mangala will turn out very good.

It's just a hunch, but I think the two groups are the Argentinians and Spanish on one side and then the Balkans, Toure and Nasri on the other (unintentionally, effectively the Catholics vs the Muslims!).

Hart, Kompany and Milner, and to a lesser extend Zabaleta, are in the middle. Kompany looks like he can't cope with the captaincy at all this year, Milner wants out, Zabas a patch on what he was and Harts happy as long as he does his bit really.

I might be completely wrong with that split, there is a real lack of trust though and Pellegrini has been badly let down these last few weeks, culminating in yesterday's shambles.

It's going to be a very interesting summer, put it that way!

Agree. As for Mangala...I've tried to stick up for him against the criticism all season. He's hardly had a proper chance.

I can also see where you're coming from with the split....it would make sense and as you said - if TLMLF goes, it may well make sense to get rid of Nasri as well.

If religion now comes into the dressing room - then as a sport, we're all fucked.

Guess it doesn't manifest itself when things are going well...but rears it's head when things are tough.

For me though - I get the sense that Kompany may have his hands tied in this. Maybe that's the source of frustration?

I can't see him sitting idly bye whilst TLMLF is allowed to get away with inept performances time and time again, without saying something.

But as was said earlier - TLMLF as our Captain? That's a disgrace - and the Manager allowed that.

Let him fester in the reserves until this season is over - and IF FFP isn't going to worry us....take a hit on him, just to get rid of his nonsense attitude and work ethic.

There are loads of mercenaries in football...but for me, he has and always will be, one I've always thought of as being one of them.

Shame...cos all it does is tarnish our name.

I think a lot of Kompany's form can be put down to no rest in the summer, For the first time in 24 years Belgium got to a world cup finals. Kompany as captain played an important role but also sustained an injury which kept him out of a couple of group matches. Came back for the latter part of the competition 2 weeks break  & back to pre season & new league season. Given also his injury record last season I think a bloody good rest this summer may well help him rediscover his form.

It has to Oz....because whatever it is, weighed down with the obvious in-house issues, is making him look nothing but a liability.

Same with Zabaleta, he's looked nackered all season.

This squad has played a lot of football recently and with the restrictions and who we have bought, there hasn't been the chance for much rotation. Look how many players arsenal have just in the position that silva plays for us for example.

"Guess it doesn't manifest itself when things are going well...but rears it's head when things are tough."

Exactly what I was thinking

It's a shame....if you think where we came from, what we achieved in a relativity short space of time....a few tweaks here and there, a manager that was tough, but fair, a pair of directors that could have bought more sensibly - and sold more sensibly - we'd be in a position to be challenging for the PL again and possibly, having a good go at the CL Semi's.

Sadly, from board level to Manager, from new signings to ageing players on big wages - they've all let the fans and owner down.

Back to the drawing board - which takes us back 2 years in our progression - but one we MUST learn from and never allow to happen again.

I'm not sure that it's a religion thing, but who knows? I didn't think Kolarov and Jovetic were muslims, but maybe the Balkans are on one side together because they are always on the fringes of the team. Maybe Toure wants to feel more important and they side with him and Nasri is just his dog?

I'd like to keep those guys that have done it for us and may not be past it yet to give them one more chance but put them up against top class players for their position. It took ages for Pellegrini to drop Kompany because the competition really wasn't good enough. The same can be said for Zabba and Clichy. Yaya too.

We talked about having two world class players for each position but we really haven't got that.

I don't think it is a religion thing either, it just sprang to mind whilst I was typing the groups that they do seem to fit to those two groups! I imagine it is coincidental.

I don't....I think it's it's exactly what you called it - a split in the camp. Something clearly isn't right...but regardless, this Manager can't and will not sort it out and do the sensible thing.