A few good men.....

Here is the one problem that even Pep Guardiola's best-laid plans and grandest ambitions may not be able to overcome. Suppose there simply aren't enough great players to go around.
Very good players, sure. Kevin De Bruyne, David Silva, Raheem Sterling, Sergio Aguero. Manchester City have plenty of very, very good players.
But to recreate what Guardiola achieved at Barcelona needs more than just good. It needs the best, the most imaginative, the most astute and hard-working; the players who are at the pinnacle of the game. 
Lionel Messi, Andres Iniesta, Xavi, Javier Mascherano, Sergio Busquets.
These men were — and some still are — the leaders in their field. The irreplaceables, one might say. Guardiola had some outstanding talents with him at Bayern Munich too but, without those irreplaceables, it wasn't the same.
Yes, they experienced huge success domestically but Munich fell short in Europe, eliminated at the semi-final stage each season by a giant of La Liga.
Real Madrid — who have a cast of irreplaceables of their own — beat them 5-0 on aggregate; Barcelona 5-3 the next year. Atletico Madrid, whose team was nearest to Guardiola's own in terms of individual talent, squeaked through on away goals.

This is not the tired argument that Guardiola's reputation was falsely elevated by his players. It is all about him, too. In a matter of weeks he has transformed Manchester City, who lead the Premier League table, albeit by one goal from Arsenal. If they rise from fourth to first, it will still be the biggest title-winning leap of the Premier League era, the miracle that was Leicester aside.
Yet recent reversals have planted seeds of doubt. We know what Guardiola is trying to achieve. Yet does he have the players for it? And if he doesn't are they out there in the number required?
If we accept that Messi, Iniesta, Luis Suarez, Neymar, Gareth Bale, Cristiano Ronaldo and Toni Kroos are happy where they are, is there a second tier that can bring Guardiola's ideas to life as skilfully?
Take his need for a sweeper-playmaker-goalkeeper. Manuel Neuer was the best in the world at it. Claudio Bravo isn't. He's good, but he's not Neuer. So Guardiola can have this brilliant concept, and it may revolutionise the way we play in England, but he still won't be able to implement it as he could before.

And we could go through the Manchester City team like that: picking out individuals who are very fine footballers but whose ability will always fall just short of peak Guardiola.
De Bruyne is having a tremendous season. Is he Messi? No. So Barcelona, plus Guardiola's innovation and Messi are always likely to equate to more than Manchester City, plus Guardiola's innovation and De Bruyne.
This is not intended as criticism. The Guardiola backlash has been too harsh. As De Bruyne pointed out this week, it is very hard to adequately teach new methods to players once the domestic and European season is fully under way. Training becomes little more than a series of recovery sessions.

Equally, the idea that every defensive mistake is a result of Guardiola's philosophy rather than individual carelessness is wrong. A reporter couched John Stones' error in giving the ball to Southampton's Nathan Redmond on Sunday, in terms that suggested this was the obvious product of playing the Guardiola way. 'The way I want to play is not to pass to their striker,' corrected Guardiola, firmly.
Yet if Manchester United can break world transfer records and end up worse off than at this stage last season — and don't forget they didn't have Marcus Rashford a year ago, either — it would suggest that there simply are not enough stellar players to spark a revolution right now.
Would Paul Pogba make that much difference to Manchester City? Would Henrikh Mkhitaryan, who cannot even get in Manchester United's team regularly?
Each week there are tales of who Guardiola will target in the next transfer window. On Tuesday it was Juan Bernat and David Alaba of Bayern Munich. Good players, yes. An upgrade on what Guardiola has at City? Most definitely. The best, the undisputed masters of their domain? Well, probably not. There are others out there, just as good.

And right there is Guardiola's greatest challenge. He has a radical plan, but it requires more than just a few good men. A lot more.
Martin Samuel

Good article. Basically, we can have the best ideas, but you need the best players to implement them the best. Suarez has gone to the next level at Barca and he cost them £60M. If abemeyang can do the same for us at that price, that's be brilliant. But a lot is down to pure luck. Jesus may well be a start.

I think Pep has said as much in his interviews. He's mentioned that at Barca he had wonderful players incl Messi. At Bayern, the same - I honestly don't think we've got 15 players better than Bayern's, never mind Barca.

Our back 4 is nowhere near Spurs' back 4, never mind some of the best teams in the world - and that's what's costing us dearly at the moment.

We should have beaten Celtic after scoring 3 goals away. We should have beaten Everton after scoring 1 and missing 2 pens.

Barcelona we were on a par with them until the individual mistakes and the sending off of our keeper. There's only been Spurs where we just didn't turn up on the day and Spurs played to their very best.

You would also think that we could outscore teams, so it shouldn't matter - but we've not been clinical enough. Why?

If you take our forward 3 - Aguero, Sane/Nolito and Sterling. Out of the 3, you would only say Aguero is clinical and he's been slightly out of form. 
Out of Messi, Neymar and Suarez - all 3 are clinical 99% of the time.
Out of Muller, Lewandowski and Coman/Ribery - 2 out of the 3 are clinical finishers. If out of the 3 Barca or Bayern players, one is having an off day - it doesn't really matter as the others will step up and score - add to that the MF's who score for these 2 teams, Iniesta, Rakitic for Barca, Vidal, Sanches, Costa for Bayern.

Can you see the likes of Fernandinho, Gundogan and Silva scoring 10 goals each this season? They all will have and have had, plenty of shooting chances, but rarely take them.

Our saving grace is KDB....he will score goals. Kelechi bags a few, but when he starts, he rarely impresses, but he's young. Sterling now playing out wider, along with Sane, will get less opportunities as they'll be there to set things up.

Maybe we need to find a different way - maybe Kelechi or Sane up top with Ageuro in behind will give Aguero a little more freedom and offer us a little more height?

However, it won't matter if we keep being sloppy at the back and giving goals away.

I think Jesus will make a difference as he'll bring something a little different - but let's hope by then, we've found that something missing and we can introduce him slowly into the PL without piling pressure on him....then in the summer, completely overhaul our defence.

I disagree with Martin on this one.  I wouldn't say Barca have the very best players in all positions and neither do Madrid.  But what they DO have are managers that know what they have in the squad and can use them to the best advantage.

Just look at the rags in the 2012/13 season.  That was the worst side they'd had, on paper, since Taggart took over, yet they won the PL at a canter.  How?  Because the manager knew what he had and played to their strengths.

It's not about who you have, it's about how you use them.  Messi is perhaps the best player in the world right now, but if you stuck him up top for, say, Sunderland, he'd be nowhere near where he is now and not because it's Sunderland, but because he's not alongside players who complement him.

Pep's inability to kill every team stone dead with City so far is less to do with not having the very best players, but not having yet found the very best formation for what we have.  It may well be there is no such thing, and this is where we need to bring in fresh blood.  But I refuse to believe that we're struggling because our players aren't the very best, because they don't need to be, they just need to play as a solid, flawless unit.

Sorry, Martin, but history demonstrates that having a squad of Galacticos guarantees nothing.  Leicester won the league using a £400k midfielder and a striker who was previously playing for Fleetwood Town.  QPR, on the other hand, spent millions on big name players and ended up relegated.

Pep doesn't need the best players.  He just needs time to work out what his best team is.

I think it's a bit of both really. Yes, we always want better players and we're scouting them younger and younger hoping to get lucky an unearth a real gem.

But we have to play better as a team. On an individual level, I think we've comfortably got the best players in the league, but as a team, we aren't up there with Liverpool or Spurs.

Not sure where to start with that lot, but I'll give it a try whilst my manuals are printing off - answers in BOLD:

I disagree with Martin on this one.  I wouldn't say Barca have the very best players in all positions and neither do Madrid.  But what they DO have are managers that know what they have in the squad and can use them to the best advantage.


I don't believe ANY team in the world has THE VERY BEST PLAYERS IN EACH POSITION - and I also don't think Samuel is claiming that. If you went through Barca's team alone, out of the following team, who is better in ours right now that you would replace their players with ours?


Ter Stegan
Mascerano/Mathieu
Pique
Alba
Umtiti
Rakitic
Busquets
Iniesta
Neymar
Suarez
Messi


Just look at the rags in the 2012/13 season.  That was the worst side they'd had, on paper, since Taggart took over, yet they won the PL at a canter.  How?  Because the manager knew what he had and played to their strengths.



I think an awful lot of that was how poor the other teams were in that season, just like last season with Leicester winning it. If any of 4 teams, would have played to their potential, they could easily have won the league those seasons.


It's not about who you have, it's about how you use them.  Messi is perhaps the best player in the world right now, but if you stuck him up top for, say, Sunderland, he'd be nowhere near where he is now and not because it's Sunderland, but because he's not alongside players who complement him.



I disagree. Simply because, Messi creates his own chances a lot of the time. Would he score 50 goals in the PL with any team? No, of course not. However, he'd definitely score 20+ IMO. Of course, playing with better players helps - but isn't that Martin Samuel's argument?




Pep's inability to kill every team stone dead with City so far is less to do with not having the very best players, but not having yet found the very best formation for what we have.  It may well be there is no such thing, and this is where we need to bring in fresh blood.  But I refuse to believe that we're struggling because our players aren't the very best, because they don't need to be, they just need to play as a solid, flawless unit.



How is it Pep's inability to kill a game stone dead? He's not on the pitch. Apart from Spurs, we've created an untold number of chances in all the games we've played in, even in Barca, Gundogan and Stones were both guilty of simple chances that either Neymar, Messi or Suarez would have scored - hence, having the best players on the pitch.


Sorry, Martin, but history demonstrates that having a squad of Galacticos guarantees nothing.  Leicester won the league using a £400k midfielder and a striker who was previously playing for Fleetwood Town.  QPR, on the other hand, spent millions on big name players and ended up relegated.



Sorry Leo, but how many times have we seen a Leicester win the PL? Having a squad of Galactico's gives you far more opportunities to win the PL....since it's inception, only Arsenal, United, Chelsea and City have won the PL - now Leicester with that freak year....and all of those teams have spent the most money and had the best players in the PL since it's inception (apart from last year). And where will Leicester finish this season???


Pep doesn't need the best players.  He just needs time to work out what his best team is.



Yes, he does. He needs the best players possible to compete on 4 fronts, which is where we are now in the world of football. We are expected the win trophies every season. We are expected to compete with the likes of Bayern, A Madrid, Real Madrid and Barca....getting through the group stage and being knocked out in the next round by Bayern or Real Madrid, is simply unacceptable now. Therefore, we need the best players at our club to compete with the other big teams in Europe, and sadly, we are 4/5 players short of where these other clubs are right now.


I agree, Pep needs time...but only to bring the players he wants and needs at the club. I've no worries that after next summer, we'll see us significantly progress further....bit if you agree that Pep doesn't need the best players, would you gamble your mortgage on him managing Sunderland to the PL title on more than one occasion, or Hull, or Watford, or even Leicester for that matter?


If you looked at Bayern, both Madrid teams and Barca - all 4 are probably way ahead of us right now....if you had a choice (forget City memories, affiliation etc), would you take their squads and players over City's right now?


I would.


Pep will get it right and it will take time, but the essence of Martin Samuel's piece is spot on for me. It's saying, we can't expect to be Barcelona, Real or Munich right now, as we don't have the players they have, many of which, are the best players in world football.


Take a look at the Ballon D'Or list:


Sergio Aguero (Manchester City)
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang (Borussia Dortmund)
Gareth Bale (Real Madrid)
Gianluigi Buffon (Juventus)
Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid)
Kevin de Bruyne (Manchester City)
Paulo Dybala (Juventus)
Diego Godin (Atletico Madrid)
Antoine Griezmann (Atletico Madrid)
Gonzalo Higuain (Juventus)
Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Manchester United)
Andres Iniesta (Barcelona)
Koke (Atletico Madrid)
Toni Kroos (Real Madrid)
Robert Lewandowski (Bayern Munich)
Hugo Lloris (Tottenham Hotspur)
Riyad Mahrez (Leicester City)
Lionel Messi (Barcelona)
Luka Modric (Real Madrid)
Thomas Muller (Bayern Munich)
Manuel Neuer (Bayern Munich)
Neymar (Barcelona)
Dimitri Payet (West Ham)
Pepe (Real Madrid)
Paul Pogba (Manchester United)
Rui Patricio (Sporting Lisbon)
Sergio Ramos (Real Madrid)
Luis Suarez (Barcelona)
Jamie Vardy (Leicester City)
Arturo Vidal (Bayern Munich)
Club List:
Man City - 2 players - 4th
Man United - 2 players ( ) from other clubs last season - 5th
Leicester City - 2 players - Champions
Dortmund - 1 player - 2nd
Real Madrid - 6 players - 2nd
Juventus - 2 players - Champions
A Madrid - 3 players - 3rd
Barcelona - 4 players - Champions
Bayern - 4 players - Champions
Spurs - 1 player - 3rd
WHU - 1 player - 7th
S Lisbon - 1 player - 2nd
CL Winners:
2016 CL Winners - Real Madrid (6 players on the Ballon D'Or shortlist). Barcelona won their domestic league.
2015 - Barcelona - Barcelona won their domestic league.
2014 - Real Madrid - Barcelona won their domestic league.
2013 - Bayern Munich - Bayern won their domestic league.
2012 - Chelsea - MCFC won their domestic league.
2011 - Barcelona - Barcelona won their domestic league.
2010 - Inter Milan - Inter Milan won their domestic league.
2009 - Barcelona - Barcelona won their domestic league.
2008 - Man United - Man United won their domestic league.
2007 - AC Milan - Inter Milan won their domestic league.
2006 - Barcelona - Barcelona won their domestic league.
The point being, the best teams with the best players, generally win their leagues in a season, generally. Also, the best teams, with the best players in Europe at that time, tend to win the CL...not always, but statistically, they do.
Therefore, having the best players in world football, gives you a far better chance of success - not always, but most of the time - hence why I think Martin Samuel's article is spot on.

You forgot Blackburn Rovers.

Having the best players helps, but only if the manager knows how to play them. This is why I keep referring to Pep: He's in charge of picking the team and motivating the players and this is what isn't happening.

leopold wrote:You forgot Blackburn Rovers.

Having the best players helps, but only if the manager knows how to play them. This is why I keep referring to Pep: He's in charge of picking the team and motivating the players and this is what isn't happening.

OK....what team would you have picked differently against Soton and last night - and where's the evidence that Pep isn't motivating them? His style is a long way off Pellegrini's!
Sometimes, players and the team just go through a poor patch.


Everyone has been crying out for Kelechi - he was useless last night, so those who wanted him in, were wrong?
Many have been overly-impressed with Nolito - he was garbage last night. So they were wrong?

The players have to take responsibility for their performances. We weren't great last night, but once again, Kelechi misses a sitter in the first 2 mins. He then has 2 opportunities, one to simply cross to Sane to score, the other to play in Nolito who would have been one on one with DeGea....this is way before Pogba had a shot that Willy saved.....are those mistakes Pep's fault for picking the wrong players or because he didn't motivate them?

We need to face up to the fact:

Kolorov
Clichy
Zaba
Otamendi
Navas (had a good first half, but went back to his usual shite self)

are all poor players now. That's a whole defence.

We didn't have Sterling, Silva, KDB and Fernandinho last night - that's our whole MF and best 4 players so far this season.
Aguero was on the bench and once again, got 20+ mins to pull us out of the shit.

Our Captain decided he was "tired" at HT, according to Pep.

We had Garcia and Maffeo on the pitch who both did really well...maybe he should give some more kids a chance.

If Pep was impressed by Maffeo and Garcia, play them in the league. if he really means it.

It's like other teams Dawg, they can't play all of the time at that age, but I'd like to see more of them for sure, incl Angelino.

Do we have any fit, decent strikers in the EDS?

Agreed, Dawg.

This is Martin Samuel's weekly post to his article's including the one on this thread:

Point two: about oil clubs
So according to Samuel, Manchester City have spent billions yet are not to blame for not having a team good enough team to win the Premier League or Champions League. Yet Arsenal – who have spent a fraction of that – have failed by not winning the Premier League for 12 years. Why is he so keen to protect the oil money clubs? Paul1973, Chelmsford.

Arsenal are the fifth-biggest spenders since last winning the
Premier League, so let’s not pretend they have failed to invest. Yes, City have spent more heavily – not the billions you claim, but roughly twice as much as Arsenal – but they had to swiftly buy their way into the elite due to the rapid approach of FFP restrictions. Arsenal were already on the inside so did not have to act so hastily. Basically, both clubs have acted pragmatically to suit different circumstances, although City have not built teams unable to win the Premier League as you suggest. They have won it twice in recent years and lead the table again this season. I do not believe City have failed and I’m not sure Arsenal have either, considering their aim on the corporate side is to achieve financial stability and profit. Stan Kroenke does not seem unhappy with the present state of affairs – it is the fans who are always in a rage, not the board. But here’s my real point: what is it about oil that makes it such a dirty word in football? Is it the dirtiest industry? Not really. Are those involved the worst owners? Far from it. Arsenal fans would kill to have a man at the top who believed in investing in the team – and kept ticket prices relatively low – like Sheik Mansour. Nor is it as if football was a haven for the morally upstanding until the oil barons arrived. Anyway, doesn’t Arsenal’s stadium bear the name of an airline from the United Arab Emirates? So how is City’s oil money dirty and Arsenal’s oil money clean?


Point three: about that useless Pep Guardiola

Brian Clough and Peter Taylor found their world beaters in places like Brighton, perhaps Guardiola should start there? You never know he could win the Champions League without having to buy the ‘world's best players’ and save the club a few 100m. I thought he was another genius. It doesn't take genius to spend money, does it? Magoo, London.

Newsflash! The top spending coach needs to spend even more. Nothing special about him. If you spend the most you should be winning all your games. Howie76, Manchester.

This is the exact reason I feel Guardiola is very overrated. The greatest managers can somehow get the best from every player, the way Sir Alex Ferguson did out of Darren Fletcher, Nicky Butt, Phil Neville, John O’Shea and Wes Brown, and Arsene Wenger got Arsenal consistently into the top four with players like Sebastien Squillaci, Marouane Chamakh, Manuel Almunia and Denilson. Carlo Ancelotti has managed a number of great clubs without having to sell a big player because he does not fit his style. He simply comes up with a system that works. Guardiola needs players to be at the Barcelona level of technical ability, or his system will fall apart. James Hardy123, London.

One argument against this article. Leicester showed you don’t necessarily need the masters, Lionel Messi or Gareth Bale, because there is something else. Villamedici, London.


Yes, but you wouldn’t employ Guardiola to get him to play the way Claudio Ranieri did at Leicester last year. The club adapts to Guardiola, rather than the other way around. Now you may think that egotistical, or even one-dimensional, but that’s the way it is. With Guardiola a club is almost importing a brand of football in a way it simply isn’t with, say, Ranieri. He went to Leicester and adapted his philosophy to the fact he had exceptionally quick players in his first-team group. This year, having lost N’Golo Kante and with Jamie Vardy more closely guarded, he has tinkered again. Guardiola doesn’t adapt. He plays his way, his philosophy, or he walks; and Manchester City have bought into that way. As for the posts about his spending, I’m afraid anyone who thought the message in Wednesday’s column was that Guardiola needs to buy more players missed the point. I was doubting there were enough great players out there to recreate what he had at Barcelona. I wasn’t suggesting he should buy – rather questioning where buying could get him when Paul Pogba has so far made scant impact at Manchester United. And he’s Guardiola, remember. So just qualifying for the Champions League or winning the odd cup doesn’t cut it. Clubs bring him in to produce the best, the ultimate; not to emulate the last 12 years of Wenger at Arsenal, or to win having had less possession like Leicester. Shopping in the Championship isn’t meant to be what Guardiola is about but my concern for City is that I am not sure where he could shop that is going to make that much difference.

I agree with that last sentence. Where can Pep go to buy the players he needs for his style and to take us to the very top? I believe that the purchases of Moreno, Gabriel, Zinchenko, Unal, Roberts etc. were in the hope that someone makes it to the very top. Without those players we'll always be in the shadows.

Magoo of London really should get his facts right? Clough & Taylor did sweet Fa for Brighton. Clough left after half a season leaving them mid table in the old div 3 . Taylor took Brighton to 5th in div 3 the following season finding a gem in Peter Ward. Taylor leaves Brighton to reunite with Clough at Forest. Forest Buy Peter ward From Brighton for 400,000 pounds in 1979 Clough doesn't fancy ward so only plays a handful of games in 2 seasons & returns to Brighton. In The Meantime Clough becomes the first manager to spend 1 million pounds on a player, Trevor Francis.

So all in all clough didn't buy successful players from Brighton & he spent money like no other in the 1st Division in his day.

Love the Gooner siting utds average players & conveniently missing all the big money purchases and the Arsenal players who barely got a look in with regards to 1st team football again conveniently missing the big name signings.