Guardiola stalling on new contract

Get him signed. Either him or Simeone and pay them whatever it takes.

Paper talk. He won't leave Bayern just yet, and even if he left in the summer, he would only go to a club with money to spend. He won't want to be hamstrung by FFP as it might show up a weakness...

Are you saying he's a lucky Manager that can only succeed with money?

I'm only going off what I see.  When he left Barca, he could've gone anywhere, but elected to go to Bayern, who were about the financially strongest of the Bundesliga clubs.  Yes, I can't deny he's taken them into the stars with league and CL titles, but when you're starting from the upper ionosphere, it's not a massive step.  Now if he'd done that with Werder Bremen, I'd have been more impressed.

Granted, any top end boss is going to be courted by the best teams, but if he's as good as people say he is, I'd like to see him take on an outfit with issues and turn them into something special.  Maybe he can, but while he keeps picking the teams that are already at the top, he's not really demonstrating anything other than an ability to squeeze just a fraction more out of them.

Now, if he were to come to us, with our rag-tag squad of individuals of widely varying levels of ability, the promise of vast money offset by the punitive punishment of UEFA and an infinitely more successful club a few miles down the road just waiting for us to bugger it all up, and then turn us into the world-beaters, I'd be willing to re-evaluate my opinion.  But I don't think he will.  I suspect he'll end up at the rags.

I personally think he's a very good tactician, doesn't worry about getting rid of players that don't fit his style or who he feels aren't giving enough. When he took over Barca in 2008, his first actions were to get rid of players who weren't pulling their weight:

Sold:
Ronaldinho - €24.15M
Deco - €10 million
Zambrotta - €9 million with a potential €2million added on 
Giovani dos Santos - €6 million with an additional 5 million Euros payable depending on appearances
Edmílson - free
Presas -  €3 million plus 2.25 million in variables
Ezquerro - released
Crosas - £1.6 million

Bought:

Dani Alves -  €32.5 million
Keita -  €14 million
Pique - £5 million
Hleb - €15 million
Henrique - €8 million

Promoted from the youth team:
Sergio Busquets
Pedro Rodríguez 
Jeffrén Suárez

Honours:
Became the first Spanish club to win the domestic cup, the league, and the European club titles (the treble) in the same season.

2009/10:

Sold:
Samuel Eto'o and €46 million for Zlatan Ibrahimović
Eiður Guðjohnsen - undisclosed
Sylvinho - released
Alexander Hleb - loaned

Bought:
 Zlatan Ibrahimović

Honours:
La Liga title


2010/11:

Sold:
Zlatan Ibrahimović - loaned to Milan - then sold for €24 million
Rafael Márquez and Thierry Henry - released
Yaya Touré - £24 million

Bought:
Adriano -  €9.5 million
David Villa -  €40 million
Javier Mascherano - €24 million

Honours:
Lal Liga title
CL winners

2011/12:

Sold:
Milito - released
Jeffrén Suárez - €3.75 million
Bojan Krkić - €12 million

Bought:
Alexis Sánchez - €26 million 
Cesc Fàbregas -  €29 million

Promoted:
Thiago Alcântara and Andreu Fontàs

Honours:
UEFA Super Cup
Club World Cup
FIFA World Coach of the Year
Copa del Rey

So, looking at his Barca career he spent: 249 million Euros on players in 4 seasons.
He sold players worth: 146 million Euros in 4 seasons...and if you add the 73m euros for Fabregas and Sanchez brought in for Barca...his spend to win ratio is superb.

He won: 14 trophies in 4 years:

• La Liga: 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11
  
• Copa del Rey: 2008–09, 2011–12
  
• Supercopa de España: 2009, 2010, 2011
  
• UEFA Champions League: 2008–09, 2010–11
  
• UEFA Super Cup: 2009, 2011
  
• FIFA Club World Cup: 2009, 2011
  

If you think of the players he bought/brought through and those that are still at Barca worth serious money if they were to be sold on:

Alves
Pique
Busquets
Pedro
Alcantara
Mascherano
Adriano

 - When he took over Barca in 2008 - they had won La Liga twice in the previous 10 years.
 - They hadn't won the Copa Del Ray since 98'.
 - They'd only won the CL twice since 91' - 1991/2005.
 - The only won 2 Super Cups - 92' and 97'.
 - Never won the FIFA Club World Cup.


For me, there's no question he's a top class manager that isn't afraid of player power and is tactically excellent.

Yes, I see what you're getting at, but I still feel he had two massively helpful factors behind him:

1: He was at a club with lots of money and no sanctions

2: The club's name is Barcelona.

When you've got a load of money and a name with kudos, you can do whatever you like.  You can argue that getting rid of players of this calibre is easy, but you need to replace them and having the name and money of Barca makes life a lot easier.  Ibra did badly there, but how many clubs would happily offload a player like that at a loss?  And how many would then be able to recruit a replacement like Sanchez?

It's easy to be a brilliant tactician if you've got the power, money and influence of a club like Barca to back you up.  I suspect he'd find it a lot trickier to get the same results with us.  I doubt he'd be able to offload some of our dross with as much success and I also doubt he'd have the pull to bring in players of this calibre with the name of our club behind him.

I'm willing to accept I could be wrong here, but I'm going to need to see some proof first.  So come on Pep, come to City and prove I'm talking out of my arse!

I've thought he would be coming to us ever since he signed for Bayern (and we got Soriano and Begiristain) with Vieira following him. If it's to happen, I think we could do with Bayern winning the CL so he feels he has accomplished all he needs to do there.

Bear in mind with FFP we are free from sanctions at the end of this window and due to the revenue growth (which doesn't include additional sponsorship for the training ground or the bt champions league deal kicking in next year), the money is definitely there as is the platform now.

Man City! 

Robinho - 2008....bought for £33m. 18 months later, goes on loan to Santos and is sold for £15m to Milan.

Tevez 2009....bought for £47m. 2013, sold to Juventus for £10m.

In accounting purposes for FFP , we made a profit on both robinho and Tevez. Balance sheet we didn't, but tins telly there's no reason to give a shit about that!

Ultimately not tins telly!

So, what if we do get Guardiola...does the transfer policy at the club change?

Or we just getting him because he has better motivational and tactical skills?

Transfer policy won't change apart from we will have a lot more money to spend. We've copied the exact Barca model anyway - Begiristain was at Barcelona when Guardiola was.

If I'm completely honest, they bought a fair amount of duds then too.

So it's the latter then.

Not if you see my stats from above.

Ibrahimovich was the one big one....but most Managers would have asked for him if he became available 3 or 4 years ago.

Whoever made the decisions - 14 trophies in 4 years is indisputable success, for the Manager and the Sporting Director/s.

Like I said, his spend to success ratio is fantastic. If MP could win 14 trophies in 4 years for a cost of 100m euros....do you think he and the board would take it?

Yep. That and they see the head coach as being a bit of a cyclical position anyway. I imagine their ideal would have been Pellegrini for three years, Guardiola for three years, Vieira for three years.

Not sure whether Pellegrini will last it now though, depends on the rest of this season.

meltonblue wrote:Not sure whether Pellegrini will last it now though, depends on the rest of this season.

Well, if he somehow wins the CL this season (i know it's unlikely), he'll have a job for life

Jesus, you're in an optimistic mood today Shaken!

Where's that list from blueboy? There's quite a few players missing from that that they sold at big losses.

Bit of all sorts Melton...Wiki, Barca stats, Transfer webs....I'm sure that wasn't the total list, but if you can find the others that were bought and sold during his tenure...maybe it'll prove he and the Spanish Directors weren't that good. 

Did anyone call my name!?

Yes we should be begging him to come... infact anyone but MP...hhe has to go imho!

I'm sure with the £580m we've spent and the £700m Chelsea have spent since the mid 2000's....or 700m and 850m euros...either team would be happy with 14 trophies.

Be interesting to see what Madrid have spent over the same period and compare their success...can only see it being astronomical and nowhere near as much success.

blueboy wrote:Jesus, you're in an optimistic mood today Shaken!

Yep, but it could be completely the opposite tomorrow morning...hope not though.

	Season
€42.5m (€36.5m net)	2013-14	€70m (€69m net)
€33.5m (€0m net)	2012-13	€33m (€32.5m net)
€55m (€47m net)	2011-12	€60m (€13.05m net)
€89m (€79m net)	2010-11	€72.5m (€19.8m net)
€257.4m (€169.9m net)	2009-10	€93m (€88.5m net)
€82.2m (€12.9m net)	2008-09	€96m (€40.56m net)
€119m (€78.6m net)	2007-08	€68.5m (€54.5m net)
€103m (€87.8m net)	2006-07	€31m (€18m net)
€89.5m (€44.3m net)	2005-06	€0m (€-3m net)
€56.7m (€47.45m net)	2004-05	€78.5m (€63.75m net)
€37.5m (€5.7m net)	2003-04	€45.85m (€32.95m net)
TOTAL OUTLAY OVER LAST DECADE
	Time Span
€965.3m (€609.15m net)	2003-13	€648.35m (€429.61m net)

Neither Barca nor Madrid won La Liga that season as the title went to Valencia, but it has been either Blanco orBlaugrana ever since.

In 2004, Barca again outspent Madrid as the project overseen by Laporta and Frank Rijkaard continued to take shape. Samuel Eto'o arrived from Mallorca (with permission from part-owners Madrid) for €27m, while Deco joined in a €21 deal from Porto. Monaco's Ludovic Giuly was an €8.5m addition in a total outlay of €78.5m. By contrast, Madrid's major signings proved less of a hit; Walter Samuel arrived for €23m, Jonathan Woodgate for €18.3m and Michael Owen cost €12m. That season, Barca won La Liga for the first time since 1999.

With a successful squad now in place, the Catalan club brought in only one player the following summer as Mark van Bommel arrived on a free transfer from PSV Eindhoven. Sergio Garcia and Fabio Rochemback's sales (for €1.5m apiece) meant Rijkaard's side actually made a €3m profit in the summer of 2005. And the following season brought both La Liga and the Champions League as Madrid bought big but ended up with nothing to show for it in 2005-06. Samuel left for a €5m loss, but Owen departed to Newcastle for a tidy €13m profit. Robinho (at €24m) put in some impressive performances but ultimately failed to live up to expectations at the Santiago Bernabeu, while Julio Baptista was an expensive disappointment at €20m. Sergio Ramos, signed from Sevilla for €27m, has gone on to become a spectacular success, however.

Barcelona's dominance looked set to continue in 2006-07, following the summer signings of Eidur Gudjohnsen (€12m from Chelsea), Lilian Thuram (€5m from Juventus) and Gianluca Zambrotta (€14m from the same side), but Madrid mounted a late comeback in La Liga to claim the title under Fabio Capello - helped along by new recruits Ruud van Nistelrooy (€15m from Manchester United), Fabio Cannavaro and Emerson (both €11.5m from Juve), as well as Gonzalo Higuain (€12m from River Plate. Mahamadou Diarra at €26m, however, turned out to be bad business, as did Fernando Gago at €20.5m.

Capello left in the summer of 2007 and new boss Bernd Schuster bought big: Arjen Robben joined from Chelsea for €36m, Wesley Sneijder arrived from Ajax at €27m, Porto's Pepe moved for €30m, Royston Drenthe cost €14m and Gabriel Heinze €12m. Not all of them proved successful, but Madrid did retain La Liga. Barca, who had shelled out €24m to bring in Thierry Henry, €20m for Gabi Milito and €15m for Eric Abidal, again ended the campaign empty-handed. Those players, however, along with €9m Yaya Toure, would prove important under Pep Guardiola in 2008-09.

Guardiola dispensed with Ronaldinho (sold to AC Milan for €25m) and Deco (who went to Chelsea for €10m), but brought in Dani Alves for €35.5m, Seydou Keita for €14m (both from Sevilla) and Gerard Pique for just €5m from Manchester United. Aleksandr Helb at €17m, Martin Caceres at €16m and Henrique for €8m struggled, yet the Catalans enjoyed the best campaign in their history as they won La Liga, the Champions League and the Copa del Rey. Madrid, meanwhile, splashed €27m on Klass-Jan Huntelaar, €20m on Lass Diarra and €15m on Rafael van der Vaart, only to end up without a trophy. One positive, however, was the healthy profit made on Robinho, sold to Manchester City for €43m.

The following summer saw huge investment from both teams. Huntelaar (€15m) Sneijder (€15m) and Robben (€20m) left Madrid as Florentino Perez returned to the presidency and splashed the cash on several superstars - including Cristiano Ronaldo for €94m, Kaka at €65m and Xabi Alonso at €35.4m. But Barca, who let Eto'o leave for Inter as part of the €69.5m deal which brought Zlatan Ibrahimovic to Camp Nou, reclaimed La Liga in Guardiola's second season.

The Catalans' substantial spending in 2009 was dwarfed by Madrid's total outlay of €257.4m that same summer and Real bought big again in 2010 as Jose Mourinho arrived. Raul and Guti left for free, while Van der Vaart was bought by Tottenham for €10m as Real recruited Angel Di Maria (€33m) Mesut Ozil (€18m), Sami Khedira (€14m) and more. Barca, meanwhile, brought in David Villa for €40m from Valencia and Javier Mascherano for €20m from Liverpool, but the Catalans' net spend was under €20m in total thanks to the sales of Yaya Toure (€30m to Manchester City), Dmytro Chygrynskiy (to Dinamo Kiev for €15m, a loss of €10m) and the loan of Ibrahimovic to Milan for €6m with a view to a permanent €24m deal the following summer.


[size]

Barca claimed La Liga and the Champions League in 2010-11, although Madrid did win the Copa del Rey. And in 2011-12, Mourinho's men took the title from their fierce rivals after more significant spending in the summer, with Fabio Coentrao brought in for the still-surprising sum of €30m. Nuri Sahin and Raphael Varane also arrived at €10m apiece, as well as €5m Jose Callejon, while Ezequiel Garay departed for €5.5m to Benfica. Barca bought big with two star signings, as Cesc Fabregas (€34m) and Alexis Sanchez (€26m) came in. Funds were recouped as Ibrahimovic departed for €24m, along with Bojan Krkic for €12m to Roma - although Barca have this summer been forced to buy him back for a million more.

Just two players joined Barca in 2012 as well, with €14m Jordi Alba arriving from Valencia and Arsenal's Alex Song signing for €19m to play under Tito Vilanova as the Catalan club reclaimed the title but suffered a humiliating 7-0 loss to Bayern Munich in the Champions League semi-finals. Madrid, meanwhile, made one major signing as Luka Modric joined from Tottenham, but total outlay was zero due to several key departures - including those of Gago, Diarra, Sergio Canales, Hamit Altintop and Esteban Granero. And aside from the Spanish Supercopa, Madrid ended up with nothing in Mourinho's final campaign.

This summer, Barca have shelled out €57m on Neymar and bought back Bojan for €13m (as part of the original arrangement with Roma), while Madrid have recruited Isco for around €30m, plus Casemiro and Dani Carvajal for around €6m each as Pedro Leon's move to Getafe has been confirmed for a similar fee. One more major signing and the club's outlay since 2003 will hit a billion, while Barca's spending in the same time period is also astronomic. No wonder the rest of La Liga cannot compete.[/size]

This was only up 2013....!!!

No wonder they are both in so much debt!

Real have tipped a billion euros in ten years????



At least the billion our owner has spent includes buying the club and it's debts outright and a new academy!

And they wonder why UEFA are now on their case!

Isn't it FIFA that are on them?

But yeah, it makes a total mockery of FFP that both Real and Barca can be such financial leviathans, hoovering up every half decent player in Europe and spitting out those that don't fit with impunity, while clubs with less than 1% of that debt are threatened with administration.

Sorry, could be FIFA Leo....just surprised UEFA haven't had their say then!!

Leviathans?

Monsters....I think he was referring to.

blueboy wrote:Sorry, could be FIFA Leo....just surprised UEFA haven't had their say then!!

What, UEFA take a swipe at one of their darlings?  Please!!

Topdawg wrote:Leviathans?

Sorry, I was thinking of water polo...

blueboy wrote:Monsters....I think he was referring to.

Yeah, that's the one.

Get pep, get messi, get pogba. Dump pellegrini, navas, dzeko, jovetic. That'll do for starters.

Whilst you're at it, get Isco, Busquets and Alba....

For me, the most important person has to be the manager. If we can have Yaya on £200k p/w, why can't we do the same for a manager?

We need the best manager out there and we need to pay whatever it takes. If he's good enough, he'll make do with one less superstar to cover his own wages.