Let it begin..........

We've just had months of continuous scaremongering from both Leave and Remain campaigns, which most normal citizen despised.

Well, we were given the opportunity to vote, we voted, the results were announced and what do we read from people in the press, the media, social media????

Even worse scaremongering!!!

I must say, mainly from the Remain campaigners.

Cameron resigns.

reporting the news as the financial markets start crashing is not scaremongering.

Did I once mention 'anything' about reporting what we knew would happen with the financial markets???

The financial markets will stabilize, this fall was always predicted to happen if we left...no surprises .

It will...it's no surprise as you say. We knew this was the price of leaving the EU in the short-term.

The BoE will cut interest rates, people will lose 0.2 to the £ on their euros if going abroad this summer.

I think we just need to see what happens - it's a gamble, but one that may be worth taking in the long-term.

The thing is, we'll never know the potential repercussions of staying in the EU, so expect any bad news of leaving, to be used as a "told you so" by the Remain camp in the coming weeks and months.

Interestingly, lots of MEP's are now claiming that the EU is in such a state it really needed the UK to remain, but now the country has voted LEAVE, they foresee the EU crumbling within 5 years, when the likes of the Netherlands follow our suit.

I was firmly in the remain camp, mainly because it is a gamble, one I didn't want to take.
We might come out of this probable recession much stronger, might not (gamble)..

I am worried if the EU collapses though as we were a major contributor in there. not only because of collapse, but the parties that would go for power in other countries off the back of it (UKIP and worse type parties)..
Europe could become a very volatile place once again..

Or it might not. the EU might flourish and trade better with the UK out of it.
All a gamble..  ))

Agree Moon....it is a gamble voting either way. I guess it depends on what's important to each person, as this campaign as been a shambles - lies, confusion etc etc.

Figures banded around from each party, quoting 'experts' on both sides shows that it is a gamble....but I think we, as Britain were in a far stronger position to take that gamble than the likes of Spain or Italy are.

but there in should we not be shouldering responsibility. Countries with power should be helping those without (the whole point of the union).

Saying "I'm alright Jack" is one thing if it doesn't then negatively affect others. It wasn't just the future of the UK we are gambling with..

read one report that it was only the OAP age group that voted leave overall. I guess, as a group, they feel left out, ignored and neglected. I don't see any change for them whether we are in or out.

Not from my experience Dawg.

From the aircrew community, I'd say the split was 80% in favour of Leave, to 20% Remain.
.....................

Saying "I'm alright Jack" is one thing if it doesn't then negatively affect others. It wasn't just the future of the UK we are gambling with..

........................

What was the future for the EU and countries within it? It's been nothing but a good idea, run badly from the very beginning and only getting worse and worse. Ask the Greeks how they feel with massive unemployment, loss of pensions etc....and it wasn't the UK that decided they should be bailed out 3 times. The EU did that to impose massive interest payments for the fat cats of Europe and the European banking community - and who picked up the slack?

There are only 11 EU countries out of the 28 member states paying money in to the EU with rest taking out. 

I really think this will be a catalyst for good and change within the EU....it couldn't carry on in it's current guise.

Who knows, they may beg us to remain and give us greater sanctions, decisions etc - as it's clearly spooked the EU leaders big time. It's been like the bully in the playground - giving us a bloody nose, telling us we're weaker than them...until the bullied fights back and surprises the bully. Then, all those around watching the fight, realise, the bully isn't that strong after all.

Here's a prime example...all these leaders were quick to tell us "you leave, that's it". Today, after this country voted LEAVE....suddenly, it's dawning on them that the EU can still be for good, as long as good people, with good laws are in charge of it.

........

French President Francois Hollande has admitted the EU requires 'profound change' in the wake of the Brexit vote as German Chancellor Angela Merkel expressed her dismay at the result.
Hollande said the UK's vote to leave the EU must act as a 'jolt' to the bloc to implement the change needed to address its troubles - adding he was 'sad' to see Britain sever relations.
European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker insisted on Friday that Britain's decision to leave the EU was not the beginning of the end for the bloc. 
European Parliament President Martin Schulz said Britain's exit from the EU must be done quickly.
Schulz tweeted on Friday that the 'will of voters must be respected. Now need speedy and clear exit negotiation.'
He says the U.K.'s relationship with the EU had been ambiguous but that 'now it's clear.'
Britain has up to two years to negotiate an exit, but EU officials have been insisting on quick and potentially tough negotiations to discourage the 27 other countries in the bloc from wanting to leave. 

The heads of the European Greens party say the European Union needs a reset with the vote to leave in Britain showing that the EU is more divided than ever. 
Joint chairs Monica Frassoni and Reinhard Buetikofer say Friday that 'Europe is more divided and less colourful' and that 'we cannot go on with business as usual.'
They said: 'We need to "reset" the EU and together make it able to deliver credible solutions, notably to those facing a persistent economic uncertainty and a growing sense of insecurity.'

A subtle message is clear in some of these comments 'let's get Britain out of the EU as quickly as possible, so others don't realise just how buggered they are by staying in - and we'll all lose our power, influence and wealth'......if the EU wasn't so corrupt, they'd be allowing any country a free debate or referendum like Britain has just had - but they are only looking after themselves and their bank accounts.

All the while, wee Jimmy Crankie says:

While the UK as a whole voted to leave the European Union, Scots overwhelmingly opted to remain, with Ms Sturgeon declaring the result meant there had been a 'significant and material change in the circumstances in which Scotland voted against independence' in 2014.
She said: 'As things stand, Scotland faces the prospect of being taken out of the EU against our will. I regard that as democratically unacceptable.'

...................

So, they voted to remain part of the UK, now they claim it was because of the EU?

It will cost Scotland untold £b's to gain entry to the EU as they have to apply for member status......and where are Scotland and wee Jimmy getting that money from??? 

Another 'jump-on-the-bandwagon' self-serving MP.

blueboy wrote:Not from my experience Dawg.

From the aircrew community, I'd say the split was 80% in favour of Leave, to 20% Remain.
.....................

Saying "I'm alright Jack" is one thing if it doesn't then negatively affect others. It wasn't just the future of the UK we are gambling with..

........................

What was the future for the EU and countries within it? It's been nothing but a good idea, run badly from the very beginning and only getting worse and worse. Ask the Greeks how they feel with massive unemployment, loss of pensions etc....and it wasn't the UK that decided they should be bailed out 3 times. The EU did that to impose massive interest payments for the fat cats of Europe and the European banking community - and who picked up the slack?

There are only 11 EU countries out of the 28 member states paying money in to the EU with rest taking out. 

I was talking about the whole country, not just a small community.

Speaking with a greek friend at the weekend and even she was bemoaning the corruption and non collection/payment of taxes back in the country of her birth. Those issues, along with taking on too much debt and some Bony Idle people, have helped to create the situation they find themselves in.

I agree with some of the points made in that article but, I suspect, it was written by a leave person who decided that balance wasn't necessary. Maybe some influential people want Britain to fuck off asap after trying to take the ball away from the party.

Maybe the shitty set up in the EU will change for the better now that other countries look like they want a referendum too.

I don't see why Scotland can't go to the polls again now that there has been a substantial shift in the political scene.

Scotland only remained in the UK because we were in the EU and they could not apply as a lone country (they would not get in).
So their plan now is to fracture from the UK, but remain in the EU as England & wales leave.
Northern Ireland will fracture to unified Ireland or some separate entity similar.

lots of youngsters complaining that it's the soon to be dead that have shaped this vote and the kids will have to live with the decision.

blueboy wrote:What was the future for the EU and countries within it? It's been nothing but a good idea, run badly from the very beginning and only getting worse and worse. Ask the Greeks how they feel with massive unemployment, loss of pensions etc....and it wasn't the UK that decided they should be bailed out 3 times.

I'm sure the Greeks feel that it was their own government's ineptitude at collecting taxes that put them in a tricky position. And how is the EU forcing them to live within their means any worse than, say, the bank not extending your overdraft because you could be more careful with your spending?

Not saying that the EU isn't flawed, because it is. But they could just have easily have told Greece to bugger off and left them in the mire of their own making.

Jimmie Cranky needs to realise one thing:

All her bleating means cock all. She has no democratic right to call a new Scotland-Out ballot. It's up to the UK Parliament to allow Scotland another vote...some don't get to see this. When the UK last voted on Europe, Scots were pro-EU by 58% to 42%; but the English actually voted pro-EU by a much larger margin of 69% to 31%, and only two of the 68 UK counties that voted no were Shetland and the Western Isles. Back then, the SNP itself was also for out.

Scotland will have to firstly:

Ask the UK voted Government if they will allow another referendum. Crankie doesn’t have the power to call a referendum; the UK parliament does. Would it agree? If she tries to press ahead anyway in the name of injustice, the courts could stop her, and stop the use of public funds. Scotland’s civil service might be debarred from working on the referendum.

Then, she will have to negotiate her way out the UK which will take as long, if not longer, than it will for the UK to get out of Europe.

Moreover, at the last major poll taken prior to the Scottish elections, 60% of Scottish voters were Eurosceptics and wanted to leave the EU against 65% of the English. Will that massive difference change? Here's why it may not:

When that last UK referendum poll was taken, the cost of a barrel of oil was $100. It's now $30. So all that bargaining power is pretty much redundant.

Scotland will have to apply to the EU and if they choose to join the euro to do so, will mean massive interest and borrowing for a free Scotland...in turn, taxes that will inevitably have to be applied on the average Scot living under their new proposal, will deter most people.

Now, on top of this, if they choose to have their own currency, that in itself will cost the average person in Scotland thousand of £'s...because your one commodity has hit rock bottom.

Border control of Scotland will cost £b's to its economy plus the It will cost its tourism industry from England, Wales and Ireland.

It's all bravado.

Jimmy won't ask for a new referendum on leaving the UK unless she's absolutely certain she will win, because if she loses, it will take decades for another chance to vote again and set the country back -just like it did with Quebec.

Oh, and interestingly, the euro has dropped by all of 0.1 to the £ as of now..but clearly, that's spooked some European businesses as I've just been paid upfront today, for 2 contracts for August!!

Bring it on!

leopold wrote:

blueboy wrote:What was the future for the EU and countries within it? It's been nothing but a good idea, run badly from the very beginning and only getting worse and worse. Ask the Greeks how they feel with massive unemployment, loss of pensions etc....and it wasn't the UK that decided they should be bailed out 3 times.

I'm sure the Greeks feel that it was their own government's ineptitude at collecting taxes that put them in a tricky position.  And how is the EU forcing them to live within their means any worse than, say, the bank not extending your overdraft because you could be more careful with your spending?

Not saying that the EU isn't flawed, because it is.  But they could just have easily have told Greece to bugger off and left them in the mire of their own making.

You just answered your own argument.

Topdawg wrote:

blueboy wrote:Not from my experience Dawg.

From the aircrew community, I'd say the split was 80% in favour of Leave, to 20% Remain.
.....................

Saying "I'm alright Jack" is one thing if it doesn't then negatively affect others. It wasn't just the future of the UK we are gambling with..

........................

What was the future for the EU and countries within it? It's been nothing but a good idea, run badly from the very beginning and only getting worse and worse. Ask the Greeks how they feel with massive unemployment, loss of pensions etc....and it wasn't the UK that decided they should be bailed out 3 times. The EU did that to impose massive interest payments for the fat cats of Europe and the European banking community - and who picked up the slack?

There are only 11 EU countries out of the 28 member states paying money in to the EU with rest taking out. 

I was talking about the whole country, not just a small community.

Speaking with a greek friend at the weekend and even she was bemoaning the corruption and non collection/payment of taxes back in the country of her birth. Those issues, along with taking on too much debt and some Bony Idle people, have helped to create the situation they find themselves in.

read one report that it was only the OAP age group that voted leave overall

..........................


So our communities are just made up of old people???? 17m of them??? If so, we're fooked!!

I thought my point was very obvious. The only age group to vote to leave was the OAPs. 18-24 voted 75% to remain. And then the percentages fell until you had the OAPs who swung the vote.

The sad thing for them is that leaving the EU will make no tangible difference to them at all.

Apparently a lot of the first time voters (students) especially those involved in the arts - didn't vote at all as they thought it was clear that we would remain in the Union.  Think it is a catastrophe and more of a protest vote at the current government leader instead of a major referendum which will impact the UK's economy and the people.  Lower education voters tended to vote leave and I watched interviews with them which were utterly mind boggling.  "I don't know what the MP's do - so I'm voting "leave" said one girl - who was apparently not burdened with intellect.

Wensdi wrote:Apparently a lot of the first time voters (students) especially those involved in the arts - didn't vote at all as they thought it was clear that we would remain in the Union.  Think it is a catastrophe and more of a protest vote at the current government leader instead of a major referendum which will impact the UK's economy and the people.  Lower education voters tended to vote leave and I watched interviews with them which were utterly mind boggling.  "I don't know what the MP's do - so I'm voting "leave" said one girl - who was apparently not burdened with intellect.

Therefore, what you're saying is that the 'educated' arty students, these very 'bright young things' thought they wouldn't or couldn't be arsed to vote which was their democratic right to influence the outcome, because of apathy?

Jesus, we're fooked with those types of students in the pipeline entering the UK workforce (and I use workforce lightly, as I'm sure there are thousands of youth's of similar age, not afforded the opportunities some lefty/liberal lazy bastards are offered..... those who contribute to our economy by paying taxes from their apprenticeships, whilst learning a trade that will contribute to our people in this country in years to come)....who will offer what? A play? A song? A TV career? A Big Brother appearance? A painting?....whoopy fucking do!

I'll call them when my dishwasher needs fixing, or I need a plumber, a carpenter, an electrician, as clearly, our youth who decide to choose an apprenticeship are thick as fook and know nothing...over those who sit on their arses and choose some airy fairy degree.

Talk about pigeon-holing our youth!!

Just repeating what I heard on the BBC World News.  I wasn't type casting the youth - who I know nothing about.  We had the BBC news on most of last night and today - and from the interviews and discussions - this is what was said.  TBH I haven't heard anything of substance from the "leavites".

blueboy wrote:

leopold wrote:

blueboy wrote:What was the future for the EU and countries within it? It's been nothing but a good idea, run badly from the very beginning and only getting worse and worse. Ask the Greeks how they feel with massive unemployment, loss of pensions etc....and it wasn't the UK that decided they should be bailed out 3 times.

I'm sure the Greeks feel that it was their own government's ineptitude at collecting taxes that put them in a tricky position.  And how is the EU forcing them to live within their means any worse than, say, the bank not extending your overdraft because you could be more careful with your spending?

Not saying that the EU isn't flawed, because it is.  But they could just have easily have told Greece to bugger off and left them in the mire of their own making.

You just answered your own argument.

I've read it back three times now and I still can't see what you mean.  You were suggesting the Greeks weren't happy with the EU, weren't you?  But it was the EU stopping them from collapsing completely.  I don't know, I'm clearly missing something.  Maybe you should explain it to me.

If the EU didn't lend the Greeks the money, who was going to instead?
The pound has fallen badly against the Euro over the past few months. But so long ago it was a touch over 1.40 i think. Now it's a bit over 1.23. The BoE say they'll spend up to £250 billion to keep the pound steafy. After that's been spent, what's to stop it falling further unless they spend even more money. This could herald an interest rate rise at a time when banks may become more reluctant to lend money.

Topdawg wrote:If the EU didn't lend the Greeks the money, who was going to instead?
The pound has fallen badly against the Euro over the past few months. But so long ago it was a touch over 1.40 i think. Now it's a bit over 1.23. The BoE say they'll spend up to £250 billion to keep the pound steafy. After that's been spent, what's to stop it falling further unless they spend even more money. This could herald an interest rate rise at a time when banks may become more reluctant to lend money.

Or interest cuts and allow our younger generation of getting on the property ladder....

As for 1.40 to the £...jesus, where's that from?

I've not seen the Euro above 1.35 for months and months and I get Euros most months.....yesterday it was at 1.28 after a supposed crash because of the insecurity of the vote....today, it was at 1.16 after the end of the world. Now, if you're a traveller going on holiday and get 1000 euros, the loss is hardly catastrophic.

leopold wrote:

blueboy wrote:

leopold wrote:

blueboy wrote:What was the future for the EU and countries within it? It's been nothing but a good idea, run badly from the very beginning and only getting worse and worse. Ask the Greeks how they feel with massive unemployment, loss of pensions etc....and it wasn't the UK that decided they should be bailed out 3 times.

I'm sure the Greeks feel that it was their own government's ineptitude at collecting taxes that put them in a tricky position.  And how is the EU forcing them to live within their means any worse than, say, the bank not extending your overdraft because you could be more careful with your spending?

Not saying that the EU isn't flawed, because it is.  But they could just have easily have told Greece to bugger off and left them in the mire of their own making.

You just answered your own argument.

I've read it back three times now and I still can't see what you mean.  You were suggesting the Greeks weren't happy with the EU, weren't you?  But it was the EU stopping them from collapsing completely.  I don't know, I'm clearly missing something.  Maybe you should explain it to me.

Because no Greek bank will offer the average person an overdraft to start with after the EU continually gave the Greek Government billions of euros in bailouts without any restrictions on how they were to spend it...they would have been better getting a loan off Wonga....at least their interest rates at 1000+ plus be cheaper than the continued cap in hand offers the EU gave them....and for what reason? To make even more money from the Greek people...it;s not the average Greek's fault.

http://www.xe.com/currencytables/?from=GBP&date=2015-12-01

that was back in December 2015. not too long ago and the rate was just about 1.42.

From what I remember, the EU has put harsh restrictions on what the Greek government has to do with its economy to get the last few bailouts.

It IS partly the average Greek persons fault. Not paying tax is seen as not out of the ordinary.

Interest rate cuts? From 0.5% to what? Housing will get cheaper? By how much? And will the banks lend money? Without big deposits?

Topdawg wrote:http://www.xe.com/currencytables/?from=GBP&date=2015-12-01

that was back in December 2015. not too long ago and the rate was just about 1.42.

From what I remember, the EU has put harsh restrictions on what the Greek government has to do with its economy to get the last few bailouts.

It IS partly the average Greek persons fault. Not paying tax is seen as not out of the ordinary.

Interest rate cuts? From 0.5% to what? Housing will get cheaper? By how much? And will the banks lend money? Without big deposits?

Yeah, December...I said a few months, not last year.

As for the Greeks, the initial bailout led to an almost irreversible situation. Yes, I agree, there were always harsh restrictions, however, 240 billion euros, most of that is being paid to pay back International loans, not going into the economy...and they've still got a massive debt load. The UE, as I will call them from now on (the UN ELECTED)...gambled on a recovery - and that just isn't happening.

Yesterday, a committee of estate agents, along with city experts, reckon that house prices will fall by 20%....now, if you are wanting to buy your first home in the North of England for....let's say £150k, that's a £30k saving which is significant.

From 0.5% to 0% in the short-term.

The banks will use this cut to encourage spending, not block it.

We'll  just have to wait to see what will happen. Why would people believe the estate agents and not the IMF? Are those the same city experts who predicted a remain vote?

And December is just a few months ago.

That's me done for this debate. FB full of this stuff too.

I know, maybe it's time to stop debating and just get on with it.

There seems to be a lot of people clamouring for a 2nd vote. Can't see it happening any time soon. It would have been the same if the result had been the other way too.

Topdawg wrote:There seems to be a lot of people clamouring for a 2nd vote.

Yeah, by the ones that lost

Whatever the result, some of the 'losing' group would have done this. If young people had bothered to turn out in great numbers and swung the vote the other way around, the older people may have said it's not fair on them etc.

Can't win any way you it's spun.

Exactly....who's to say all the young non voters would have all voted to remain anyway. They only seemed to interview the ones in London and Uni towns.

shakencity wrote:Exactly....who's to say all the young non voters would have all voted to remain anyway. They only seemed to interview the ones in London and Uni towns.

Most of those who have voted for a 2nd referendum, are probably the fuckwit arty students who couldn't get off their arse to vote in the first place.

blueboy wrote:Because no Greek bank will offer the average person an overdraft to start with after the EU continually gave the Greek Government billions of euros in bailouts without any restrictions on how they were to spend it...they would have been better getting a loan off Wonga....at least their interest rates at 1000+ plus be cheaper than the continued cap in hand offers the EU gave them....and for what reason? To make even more money from the Greek people...it;s not the average Greek's fault.

Topdawg wrote:It IS partly the average Greek persons fault. Not paying tax is seen as not out of the ordinary.

Dawg has pretty much answered this for me, so I don't need to elaborate. Suffice it to say, if the ten wealthiest Greeks paid their back taxes from just the last decade, there'd be enough money to pay back the EU and tell them to shove their austerity measures up their arses. It really is that simple. The average Greek was happy to go along with this situation and now they're suffering, so perhaps they can force a rethink.

And therein lies my argument...."if the ten WEALTHIEST Greeks paid their back taxes".......

Always the rich, fucking over the average Joe on the street.

Ah, so now we hit the nub of where you were coming from and it seems we were actually on the same page. I expected the average Greek was pissed off at being forced into austerity because the wealthy few weren't being made to pay their taxes - because this is how I feel about it here, every time I have to pay for food on a credit card whilst discovering that Google have been allowed to pay a fraction of their tax bill. If I went to the HMRC and said, "Tell you what, I'll just pay 10% of my tax and we'll call it quits, yeah?", I'd be looking at a big bill or a jail term.

We need a leader who doesn't have mates in high places who are allowed to dodge their tax liability, then we might find we've got £350 million a week for the NHS without needing to leave the EU...

We got there in the end.....

leopold wrote:Ah, so now we hit the nub of where you were coming from and it seems we were actually on the same page.  I expected the average Greek was pissed off at being forced into austerity because the wealthy few weren't being made to pay their taxes - because this is how I feel about it here, every time I have to pay for food on a credit card whilst discovering that Google have been allowed to pay a fraction of their tax bill.  If I went to the HMRC and said, "Tell you what, I'll just pay 10% of my tax and we'll call it quits, yeah?", I'd be looking at a big bill or a jail term.

We need a leader who doesn't have mates in high places who are allowed to dodge their tax liability, then we might find we've got £350 million a week for the NHS without needing to leave the EU...

And herein again, lies my issue with the EU lending so much money to a country, adding immeasurably to their debt-crisis, whilst fat cat bankers make £billions on interest from these loans....all signed off by whom? The UE (the UN - ELECTED).

True. Rich getting richer on the misery and suffering of the poor.

But it's fine. The whole basis of capitalism revolves around people spending money. When people have no money, they stop spending and companies suffer. When the spending stops for a short time, it turns into a recession. If this carries on, it becomes a depression and, if left unchecked (which it will next time, because the rich won't want to employ people to do nothing, at their own expense, to keep the system afloat) then capitalism will collapse. As their wealth is all on paper, when everything collapses, their paper will be worthless. And the upside? Us poor buggers who have had to struggle with nothing all this time will be used to having nothing, whereas their wealth will be of no use to them and they'll be too weak to cope.