No stream for today's match?

First topic message reminder :

Haven't seen anything yet.

I have to agree Bluey. That team put out yesterday should have been strong enough to beat Boro. We had 8 so called first teamers playing. We've lost 5 at home this season already. To the likes of Boro, Newcastle, Stoke , CSKA and Arsenal. The central point was that those teams outfought us to some extent. We are only good at talking a good game, bigging ourselves up.

I've said several times that we've got players in their late 20s early 30s on long and lucrative contracts. We've not got enough HG or younger players fighting to make it to the top. Where's our Kane or Ings, Stones or Clyne?

We've got a good enough first team/squad to be much better than we currently are. We don't need to spend more money to solve whatever problems we have.

I agree with a lot of the assessment of the players, I said already I thought we have bought very poorly since 2011.

I just personally think we are as bad as some others suggest or that being second and still in the CL, regardless of if we win or lose, is us underperforming.

We were lucky to an extent last season. Had Kompany not slipped against Liverpool then the Gerrard slip wouldn't have been needed though and we broke the record for goals scored in a season.

I'm not saying there aren't issues this season, there is and I've put the blame on a myriad of reasons as well as the manager to an extent. At the same time, the performance against Roma and the 12 game winning streak shows we are still capable of clicking despite those issues.

I think my expectations are lower that's all and I see some of the performances this year as worrying at times rather than catastrophic.

Too angry to come on here yesterday... I thought I might upset someone!

Agree with most thats been said here. 

I don't think that the overpaid prima donnas are the issue here, thats just modern football... but managing those prima donnas is the issue. MP is not only clueless tactically but players don't seem to want to play for him anymore! There is no fight...in my opinion it all comes down to the manager...tlly these players dont need best friends they need to be embarrassed and fear of being droped to the bench... 

Blueboy made some good comments about south haphampton and having hungry youth keeping the aging team honest.

We have 4 hardworking and talented players in Kompany, Zabaleta, Silva and Aguero and these players are being wasted under MP... 

...and some idiot is selling Dejong and bringing in weaker players and weakening our sqaud over 2-3 years!!!! Remember Liverpool!!!!??

Personally I don't have a problem with the players, we know on their day they can beat anybody. I would still love to have NDJ but something odd happened there we don't know about.

My problem is this "Engineer" in charge! He really is totally clueless and personally I think he is out of his depth. He was lucky last year as has been said, but when we need a strong manager he is nowhere to be seen.

Even if we fluke the league again this year I won't change my stance. I don't want us to turn into Chelsea but we need the right person in charge and we certainly don't have that person at the moment.

I've no idea who that right person is? Klop?

Anyway watch us blitz Chelsea next week to paper the cracks, but they will still be there.

Lol, great minds Gsus!

Haha Jinx Bb!

Watched Diego Simeone's. He is young, has new ideas, not afraid to change tactics early and has some energy! 

We need a young manager not a stubburn old git full of excuses. ..give it to Viera for all I care.

As you say these are world class players and on the day we know and most of them have been man of the match! 

I really hope we get rid of MP no matter what... Never looked good under him.. its all down to plsyers on form and individual brilliance... nothing like south hamptons kokoeman.

What's also baffling is why he had to play Hart against Hamburg and Willy fucking Wonka yesterday?

Which was more important?

I think from now on in - MP has to play his best 11 and stick with, until TLLMF comes back with Bony and maybe with the exception being prior to Barca.

Stop rotating the CB's/LB's and get rid of Navas for good.

Leave Jovetic on the bench with Dzeko unless needed.

Bony will bring some added effort and potential goal threat.

Whilst on the Bony thing - anyone see this from the Mali game? WTF??

Silky smooth! Let's hope they get knocked out soon.

Personal Gsus wrote:Too angry to come on here yesterday... I thought I might upset someone!

Agree with most thats been said here. 

I don't think that the overpaid prima donnas are the issue here, thats just modern football... but managing those prima donnas is the issue. MP is not only clueless tactically but players don't seem to want to play for him anymore! There is no fight...in my opinion it all comes down to the manager...tlly these players dont need best friends they need to be embarrassed and fear of being droped to the bench... 

Blueboy made some good comments about south haphampton and having hungry youth keeping the aging team honest.

We have 4 hardworking and talented players in Kompany, Zabaleta, Silva and Aguero and these players are being wasted under MP... 

...and some idiot is selling Dejong and bringing in weaker players and weakening our sqaud over 2-3 years!!!! Remember Liverpool!!!!??

And this is what Boyata said the Manager said after the game.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-city-0-2-middlesbrough-pellegrini-8512821

I know he's different to Mancini or Hughes, but I just get the feeling that all isn't well within the camp lately.

Which idiot sold NDJ and brought in Garcia?

Some cleaner at Carrington...it surely couldn't have been the Manager...apparently, they have no decision over anything.

Marwood as they didn't want to pay his hike in wages.

Have to be honest, I'm surprised people think it would be the manager. We haven't done that for years and neither does virtually anyone on the continent. It's only English clubs (and not all by any stretch) that do. The manager has input but the accountability lies elsewhere. It's the same at United, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea to mention a few.

Melton... could you have seen Taggert taking orders from some pen pusher as to who he signed? Can you see Van Gaal doing the same?

What about Rodgers at Liverpool? Being told by Ian Ayre he has to sign Balotelli?

According to you, Mourinho is told who he can sign and who he can't?  

Really, you actually believe that Sporting Directors hold such sway over the Managers of Liverpool, City, United and Chelsea? Really?????

I can see Abramovich saying I want Torres to Benitez, but to Jose and making him play him???

Think you're encompassing far too many lower level PL teams in that wild, generic statement mate.

The PL isn't Spain or Italy...and the top tier Managers tell the board who they want...granted, if the money isn't there, then they may be given options of other players...but to just assume that all deals are done by the middle men is way off the mark for the top clubs, with top Managers in the PL.

Why exactly do you think we hired Begiristain and Soriano? It was to emulate the model used on the continent, I wrote a big thing about it at the time.

The ferguson way of managing is dying nowadays. Rodgers doesn't do it at Liverpool, they have a transfer committee. At spurs, Levy has control. Mourinho is an exception but even so, he wasn't at Madrid.

The English media simply don't get the model and never have done but far more premier league clubs and championship use it than people realise.

Even at United, it is patently obvious which signings were lvg influenced and which weren't.

So let me get this correct. YOU actually believe the likes of Van Gaal is TOLD who he has to sign? OK, so out of the United signings, which were NOT Van Gaal's?

Vanja Milinković undisclosed
Ander Herrera  £29,000,000
Luke Shaw £27,000,000
Marcos Rojo  £16,000,000
Ángel Di María  £59,700,000
Daley Blind  £13,800,000
Victor Valdez Free

And, for City who were the one's MP wanted/didn't want?:

Bacary Sagna Free
Fernando £12,000,000
Willy Caballero £6,000,000
Bruno Zuculini £1,500,000
Eliaquim Mangala £32,000,000
Ivory Coast Wilfried Bony £28,000,000

Di Maria shaw, Falcao and herrera. He wouldn't have had much of an issue with a couple of them but they were definitely put to him rather than the other way round. Blind and rojo are clearly his considering they are the only ones that actually suit the way he is setting United up.

For us, player recruitment was entirely what Begiristain was brought in for and is the same role he had at Barcelona. Just read any interview with him or even Soriano and Khaldoons when he was hired.

meltonblue wrote:Di Maria shaw, Falcao and herrera. He wouldn't have had much of an issue with a couple of them but they were definitely put to him rather than the other way round. Blind and rojo are clearly his considering they are the only ones that actually suit the way he is setting United up.

For us, player recruitment was entirely what Begiristain was brought in for and is the same role he had at Barcelona. Just read any interview with him or even Soriano and Khaldoons when he was hired.

But that's like saying to Pocchetino, "we can buy DiMaria and he wants to come...do you want him?"

Again, what you are saying is that a decision was made by Begiristain to get rid of Pantillimon on a free and it was he who chose Willy Caballero from Malaga for £6m???

Is this honestly what you are alluding too?

Also, during the summer when MP came, the following signings were by Begiristain and not MP's:

Jesus Navas £22,900,000
Fernandinho £30,000,000
Álvaro Negredo £20,600,000
Stevan Jovetic £25,800,000
Zacharias Faour £400,000
Martín Demichelis £3,500,000

All I'm saying is this....IF they were all his signings and not MP's, then he want's pissing off right now!!

That's exactly what I'm saying and if he doesn't get it right in the summer I agree. Again, you can see the ones Pellegrini would have wanted and those that are solely begiristains choices.

meltonblue wrote:That's exactly what I'm saying and if he doesn't get it right in the summer I agree. Again, you can see the ones Pellegrini would have wanted and those that are solely begiristains choices.

No, sorry, I can't....enlighten me.

And give us the evidence as to why they were Begiristain's and not MP's choices.

The only one who I can potentially agree with, who may have been put to MP was Jovetic, as Mancini (Directors) wanted him the season before.

Also, if you look at the transfer rumours today....Mancini has talked about wanting to reunite with Yaya. In his words "He's a world class player that I was fortunate to have at City, however, he's a City player right now, but we'll see".

Guess that's the Sporting Director of Inter talking there, telling Mancini to say those things???

Pellegrini wanted Isco rather than Jovetic.

Clearly Pellegrinis choices are Demichelis, caballero and Mangala. The first because we could have signed him on a free two weeks before we did sign him and with both him and caballero they worked together in the past. Mangala because it was going to swap to benatia when Porto wanted so much but instead we didn't buy anyone until the summer as Pellegrini wanted Mangala.

You can just type Begiristain into google though and I every link I've seen has his accountabilities in it.

We did crap before when Marwood was in the role too. The only thing we have done right in the transfer market is the fact that the amortisation and wages have been significantly cut. As I said earlier in the thread, I think the quality has been too (with a couple of exceptions).

Of course Mancini would say that, he as the coach is the public voice of the club - something that lost him his job with us when he kept banging on about us not signing Van Persie. This is what he said -


Asked specifically about Van Persie, Mancini said: 'Van Persie is not our player. He is an Arsenal or United player.

'These questions you should ask other people. I don't know what I can say. After three or four months... nothing.

He added: 'You should talk to Brian Marwood for this. 'Not me. Talk to Marwood please.'

Mancini was asked if he was happy with the way transfers were done at City and specifically the role of himself and Marwood.

He replied: 'No I'm not happy. 'I don't want to say anything at the moment."

We've had this model since the takeover.

By the way, is that 4 home games on the bounce that we've let in 2 goals?

It is dawg. Should have been more yesterday in all honesty too.

So....and Marwood is in charge of what exactly since MP arrived?

Since begiristain and Soriano arrived more than Pellegrini. He's the academy director now (I think, can't remember his exact title).

With both Micah Richards and Dedryck Boyata expected to leave this summer, Pellegrini and Begiristain could target another right-back to add competition for Pablo Zabaleta.

....................


Guess you forgot that statement.

It was Begiristain who led the recruitment drive last summer. It was his first transfer window after assuming the responsibility from Brian Marwood.

I'm sure they both have input along with other Directors as to who they want to target.

Ha! No, the ideal way for the model to operate is for them to be working collaboratively. It requires a longer post than what I'm doing as I'm giving my daughter a bath at the same time, but by begiristains choices I mean the ones that he has done the legwork on and decided how much money to spend on that position to ensure it all balances out. They wouldn't be Pellegrinis first choice as the head coach will always want the best available. You would hope there would be some form of sign off though.

Where I think they went wrong in the summer was buying Mangala rather than keeping with what we had in defence and spending the money on someone like Reus instead.

In terms of the split of responsibilities (as I saw your comment on the other thread ) I wrote something a while back about it and why we are set up the way we are. I'll try and find it.

Here you go (apologies, it's lengthy!)

Following on from everything that has happened this week, there have been opinions on both sides of the fence on whether it was the right thing to do. On that matter, I am split, but erring towards it was, however one word that has been used a lot is "stability" and why it is so important to have that in the manager. Now, in the very english sense of what a manager is, there is a lot to be said for it, however it is not the be all and end all and I think people need to realise just how much we differ from, say, the United model.

The all encompassing manager who is accountable for everything at the club, from the transfers to the youth intake, is a very English phenomenon and even then, only reserved nowadays for certain clubs. Most foreign teams have not employed this way of working for a long time, instead going down the route of a Director of Football role accompanying what should really be described as a Head Coach rather than a manager. There are pros and cons to either approach, but the mindset on stability and what is actually is required from the individuals involved differs dramatically.

As I said earlier, the best example for stability in a manager has to be United. Having stuck with Ferguson through a few difficult years at the start, they reaped the rewards and have had 20 years of unbridled success, particularly domestically. In that world, for the individual to truly mould everything at the club into what they want it to be, it takes time and stability is absolutely required. Uniteds board knew this, which is why he was allowed those years at the start, he was the manager in the purest sense of the word and reshaped virtually everything at United.

I think a lot of people look at that and therefore think, a manager needs time and stability is the way to go. Now that is true if you want to replicate what happened there, but at the same time, people have to remember that we aren't just talking about any manager, we are talking about one of the best there has ever been. What I would also say is that Fergusons true genius was in squad building and evolution rather than tactics, but because he had full control, he had the platform that he needed.

Since Mancini has been sacked, I have seen a lot of comments from fans of other clubs saying "he hasn't bought good enough players" and "he should have done better considering how much money he has spent", and a lot of that comes from people assuming the role Mancini had at City (considering it had the same title as well) was the same as, say, Fergusons at United. It wasn't, because of the way we set up with a director of football.

In Citys world (and Chelseas, Barcelonas, Real Madrids, PSGs, Bayern Munichs, Dortmunds….i could go on for quite a while here, so that will do!), we have a director of football in Txiki Begiristain, and before that Brian Marwood. Effectively, the role of the all encompassing manager is split between the Director of football and the manager, who is now more of a head coach. The reasoning behind this model is that finding someone like Ferguson who can excel at virtually every facet of managing a club is incredibly rare (just look how high the turnover is in the championship for example, where pure managers are more commonplace).

Instead, what clubs do, and this has been in Europe for a very long time, is make sure that the absolutely key traits required are prioritised, as the roles are more specialist. The director of football is accountable for player acquisitions and making sure all facets of the club are working together (the "holistic" approach talked about in the statement), and the manager is then left to solely concentrate on the first team performance. In the time United have had Ferguson, the other clubs I mentioned have gone through a huge amount of "managers", yet have still been successful, some even more so than United. It is also the reason why a club like Bayern are already buying players before Guardiola has joined - it is not his accountability and not why he has been employed.

Due to the manager having less responsibilities, it means that longevity and stability in that role is far less important. What is needed is complete stability in the Director of Football. If you look at Chelsea, who have been criticised heavily for their chopping and changing, they had had Mike Forde accountable for player acquisitions since 2007 and before that only Frank Arnesen. That is why they have remained successful throughout, they have had stability, people are just looking in the wrong place for it. For the manager, the key traits that they must possess then become tactical knowledge and management of the first team, both in terms of man motivation and picking the team.

What is absolutely critical in this world is that the manager and the director of football are completely on the same page and know and are comfortable with what both of them are accountable for.
In Citys case, two things were always going to go against Mancini. Firstly, when Begiristain was brought in to the role, he was always going to put his own stamp on things. Mancini was not his choice, and it is not surprising that he wanted to bring someone in that he think he could work better with.

Secondly, Mancini has always said how much he wanted Fergusons level of control (and you can see that by just how many of his own people he brought in to the club). As soon as City decided to go down the Director of Football route, it was never going to be the position that Mancini himself fully craved and if you think about what traits that are fundamentally required (man management skills in particular), I'm not surprised by what has happened in the past week.

Mancini will get another job and if he gets one that allows him to have greater control, then I am sure he will do very well. For us, we have to get behind Soriano and Begiristain in particular. He is the man that we need to look for for stability and now that he is bringing in his own man as well, it is time for him to start properly earning his money.

Sorry...far too long to read....but better entertainment watching The Hotel!

So, in a word, it's nothing to do with MP, it's all the Directors fault for not being able to get £300m worth of players to beat Boro, Burnley, Stoke, Everton, CSKA, etc etc etc.

Ok.

The Sporting Director seems to be making poor choices with te players. The club seems to have made a bad decision to come back so late. The manager keeps making bad decisions tactically and with the players he selects. The players are just wanking around too much.

No, when have I said that? My m original point was you can't put transfers or the strength of the squad on him. I said he was completely to blame for some of the losses this year.

If Pellegrini is being questioned then Begiristain needs to shoulder at least part of the blame.

Agree...but your original comments to what was posted was about the blame being on the Directors for the signings, as to why we've been playing so poorly, when all most have said, is that the Manager isn't getting a tune out of an expensively assembled squad of players that won the PL last season by default.

Nothing you have posted since has made me change my view on the 'playing/tactical' side of what MP has brought to the team.

The month of December and his M of the M was down to necessity in changing his formation....as we can clearly see, whenever he is faced with having to change a strong squad, he doesn't, he just sticks to tried and tested formula that doesn't work.

He's got no thought on bringing youth through in the PL, unless he absolutely has to and he's quite happy with sticking with the likes of Navas, who is fucking useless!

So sorry, if you want to apportion blame on Begiristain, fine, we'll each have our opinions...but it's good to debate it on here and see what others feel, so I will always respect your opinion and well thought out ideas as to what you see is currently going wrong.

This squad of players should be good enough to fashion the odd goal from a set piece every now and again,know how to defend a little floaty ball into the box or have an idea how to implement a plan B when the opposition are defending deep and narrow to completely nullify the patently obvious plan A.
The fact that they can't is entirely the fault of Pellegrini

Ditto Blueboy

I only went down the route because the buys were being solely put on him. 

As I've said a few times in this thread, I blame him and Begiristain equally for us not improving as much as we should. Our squad is too heavily reliant on specific individuals, which should not be the case given the investment. Alongside that though, Pellegrini should realise that we can't play the same system when we have players missing and so needs to adapt it accordingly - something that I see very little evidence of happening (the only exception this season being adjusting to having no strikers). 

He is persisting with players that to me are no more than squad players and as such others should be given the chance (Jovetic and Navas). 

I don't want you to think I believe he's doing a great job. I don't by any stretch of the imagination. I just don't believe he is doing a terrible job either and there are bigger issues than just those tactical or motivational. 

I'm naturally cautious though so admit I will give managers a bit longer than most though!

I really hope that Vieira is being lined up as Pellegrinis successor,he's doing a terrific job with the youth teams

Ditto Paul.

How many corners have we had now that we haven't scored from? Must be nearing 150.

There's no plan B really. The idea is to prod and probe a defence that's parked until it opens. Then hope we stick a couple more away. A proper winger, able to beat men and put dangerous balls in would be wonderful. I wish we had Hazard, or someone like him, for that.

Fucking hell...I'd go as far as to say I'd take Ashley Young over Navas!

Last three years we've list to Wigan twice and boro. Championship teams prepared to work hard. Twice at home. If we won anything this season, it will be down to the fucknups of others. 
Simeone is a manager that interests me as for two seasons he's lost top players yet they are still competing. Hell, he's even managed to get Torres looking like a world beater again.

I bet the same players will line up for chelsea.

What i'd like to know is.

We can all say the as a tactician MP leaves alot to be desired and conceding goals from set-pieces etc are ultimately down to him, but why isn't Begiristain accountable for the shite buys brought into the club then?

In a nutshell, MP will lose his job because of what happens on the pitch....i accept that. But i don't get why doesn't Begiristain won't lose his job because of what he ultimately puts on it?

I guess it boils down to MP not being able to make the pawns he's given produce the goods that Begiristain thinks they're capable of.

I said somewhere else last year (or maybe longer ago) that if we fail to deliver, the two waiters need to go. I think I also said if we fail FFP, they should go. The manager was their choice. The players are their choice. The finances are of their making. Between the two of them, they had to get things right both on and off the pitch. It isn't happening. We don't look good enough on the pitch (even during our winning run) and our finances were bodged (even if you take into account EUFA screwing us around).

Personally, the way I see it is like this:

Let's just say that Begiristain has total control over who comes in and who goes out (which I don't believe he does - I think it's a joint venture between him and the Manager, otherwise, we wouldn't have bought Willy Wonka).

Against Boro, from our defence forwards:

Zaba - one of the best RB's in world football.
Vinny - would probably get into most teams in world football
Kolorov - ?
Boyata - thought he was our best defender against Boro

Navas - ?
Silva - is wanted at Barca by Xavi - says it all
Milner - is wanted by a host of PL clubs
Fernando - ?
Jovetic - supposedly wanted by a host of Italian clubs
Aguero - would possibly get in any team in world football

vs

40 Mejias Osorio
18 Whitehead Booked
04 Ayala Booked
06 Gibson
03 Friend
08 Clayton
07 Leadbitter
23 Bamford (Wildschut - 95' )
10 Tomlin (Reach - 81' )
27 Adomah
21 Vossen (Garcia Martinez - 87' )

How do we manage to lose 2-0?

Against Newcastle in the League Cup:

3 Caballero
03 Sagna
26 Demichelis
20 Mangala
11 Kolarov
07 Milner Booked
25 Fernandinho
42 Y Touré (Jesús Navas - 60' )
21 Silva (Nasri - 9' )
35 Jovetic
10 Dzeko

vs

21 Elliot
22 Janmaat (Sissoko - 64' )
02 Coloccini
36 Dummett Booked
19 Haidara
04 Taylor
30 Abeid
14 Colback
25 Obertan
32 Armstrong
16 Aarons

How do we lose this 2-0 as well?

We all know that on the odd occasions throughout the season, freak results will happen - look at Chelsea v Bradford, but these are 2 games against far inferior opposition, at home, that we got beat 2-0 and deservedly so in both games.

We could go on and on with this seasons results.

Yes, there are players we don't particularly rate in these two games - but on paper, we should be winning these games comfortably. After both games, the Manager said he thought we played well - wtf? Just because we have shots and some of them make the keeper make a save, or we pass it 11,000 times in the first half around the half way line - doesn't mean to say we played well.

For me, Chelsea have far the better squad. I'd even go as far as to say Arsenal are right up there with their quality of subs/squad players, but we've got players that SHOULD be good enough if managed and coached and motivated properly to win both of these cup games...and the fact is we didn't.

So it's down to the Manager...otherwise, we're saying we need to spend big again like United to compete with Chelsea!!

We shouldn't need to be spending big if we'd done things right. For £30M-£40M (Mangala) I think we'd all be expecting a world class defender who would have shown his class by now. I think the fact that he wasn't even first (or second) choice for France said it all to me. I still maintain I'd rather we bought Fabregas instead of Mangala even though we needed a new CB. I would have kept Lescott whilst trying to bring Denayar (or another kid) through and looked to strengthen CB if needed, later. That may be the wrong way to look at things but I think Fabregas would have brought us a lot more control and we'd have Nasri, Silva and Fabregas fighting for two spots (if we stuck with 442) or we'd have an incredible midfield with those three, Yaya and a DM (if we went 451).

Other teams are buying in excellent players for not too much money but we still insist on paying the big bucks for players that haven't made it.