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Haven't seen anything yet.

We shouldn't need to be spending big if we'd done things right. For £30M-£40M (Mangala) I think we'd all be expecting a world class defender who would have shown his class by now. I think the fact that he wasn't even first (or second) choice for France said it all to me. I still maintain I'd rather we bought Fabregas instead of Mangala even though we needed a new CB. I would have kept Lescott whilst trying to bring Denayar (or another kid) through and looked to strengthen CB if needed, later. That may be the wrong way to look at things but I think Fabregas would have brought us a lot more control and we'd have Nasri, Silva and Fabregas fighting for two spots (if we stuck with 442) or we'd have an incredible midfield with those three, Yaya and a DM (if we went 451).

Other teams are buying in excellent players for not too much money but we still insist on paying the big bucks for players that haven't made it.

blueboy wrote:Yes, there are players we don't particularly rate in these two games - but on paper, we should be winning these games comfortably. After both games, the Manager said he thought we played well - wtf? Just because we have shots and some of them make the keeper make a save, or we pass it 11,000 times in the first half around the half way line - doesn't mean to say we played well.

For me, Chelsea have far the better squad. I'd even go as far as to say Arsenal are right up there with their quality of subs/squad players, but we've got players that SHOULD be good enough if managed and coached and motivated properly to win both of these cup games...and the fact is we didn't.

So it's down to the Manager...otherwise, we're saying we need to spend big again like United to compete with Chelsea!!

On paper, yes.  On paper, we should've beaten Arsenal and Everton and Burnley as well.  But matches aren't played on paper.  Out there, on the field, we're looking at jaded players who have little fight in them and the main reason is, they go out there with the wrong attitude: We have Silva and Aguero on the pitch, so what's the worry?

The worry is, they get marked out of the game because nobody else can change the outcome in our favour.  We're not quite a one man team, but we can be closed out far too easily because we have too many men who are too willing to sit back.  The difference we saw was a bunch of individuals playing against a team and that's what showed in the end result.

We're just not a team.  We're a bunch of individuals relying on shades of brilliance to win matches.

I don't buy the argument that Chelsea are a better squad, but they do play better as a team and this is why we're struggling.  Same with Arsenal; yes, they have great players, but they're regularly undone because there's not much of a team there.  Now look at Southampton, they're doing well because they play as a unit, hence the reason teams with stronger squads are chasing them down.

The result against Chelsea was a massive upset because they backed off and let Bradford back into it.  Bradford saw the chance, played out of their skins and went for the jugular.  Boro didn't even need to do that, we just let them outplay us at every turn.  They knew how to beat us.  It shouldn't be that easy.

I don't mind us losing if we play well, but get beaten by a better side or a bit of blind luck.  Hell, I'll even take a defeat thanks to a dodgy ref (although perhaps not as graciously).  But what I won't take is an abject and humiliating defeat based on such a display of inept teamwork.  Boro came to us expecting to be swamped and set themselves up to try and counter it, but after 20 minutes they realised they didn't need to and they changed their stance.  And we stood there and did nothing to correct it, instead just doing the same thing over and over: Dawdle through midfield and either kick it around the edge of the penalty box or pass it out wide, neither of which results in anything bar a corner, which we can't score from.

I personally don't think Soreen and Burgerstand actually have the credentials they are supposed to.  They had three huge slices of luck in 1) being at Barca, with their kudos and capital, 2) having Messi to build around and 3) having Guardiola as a manager to bring it all together.  I defy anyone to make that fail to work.

We aren't Barca.  We do have money, but we can't spend it.  We have Silva and Aguero, but in this country players like that aren't treated deferentially and are instead marked out and even kicked at.  And we have the Engineer, who clearly follows the "if it ain't broke" method, when instead he needs to be fishing out the Manchester screwdriver and sorting it out.  And with all these elements in place, their purchases look out of place.  I'd go as far as to say we've actually ended up with LESS of a team as a result, because one thing we could rely on from the ones we let go is that they actually did play together as a unit.

I've seen us have some truly shocking City teams over the years, but what I see now is even worse.  I don't see a team at all.

All fair points Leo. So who's to blame and what's the solution?

 That reply will be even longer than his last post:lol:

blueboy wrote:All fair points Leo. So who's to blame and what's the solution?

Well, it seems fairly obvious to me that there's a real disconnect between the director, the manager and the squad.  Like they're working in silos, not really communicating with each other.  We keep seeing players being let go despite them still being a capable member of the squad and then seeing new (or old) blood being brought in to either attempt a replacement or just plonk another player into an already crowded mix.

I'm sure there's something amiss at the club and this is borne out by the current stand-off between the club and Milner.  His gripe was that he wanted more playing time.  He's had that, but he still wants to leave?  It's not like he's some prima-donna who wants everything his own way and he's not motivated by money or he'd have signed already.  He's getting more playing time right now, which he wanted, so what's the hold-up?

There's only one possible answer and, for me, it must be a degree of uncertainty.  He clearly believes his current situation is more to do with luck (with Nasri out injured again) and that it'll change once more.  And even if Nasri doesn't get fit soon, there's every chance we'll buy yet another midfielder who'll no doubt take centre stage for a bit, cost us a lot more than necessary and ultimately fail to be as capable or hard-working as the one he's replacing.  And probably older, too.

What we need, IMHO, is the following:
1) A captain who will put Twitter down for a few hours and try re-motivating the squad.
2) A manager who can actually plan for victory, have a plan B and stop using FFP as an excuse.
3) A director who will put the squad at ease instead of using a scattergun procurement method which just unsettles players
4) Players who are willing to fight for their place
5) Get the kids brought through

ManCityMan wrote: That reply will be even longer than his last post:lol:

Cheeky 

Very good points Leo, agree with all of that.

Nope, can't argue with all 5 points there, especially point 5.

We've seen glimpses of him adding the EDS players to the squad (with the exception of the Hamburg game)....and I know it'll be a massive leap of faith to drop a senior player....but as per your Point 4, the usual suspects know they will play every, if not every other game as per the Managers rotation policy (which tbf, goes out of the window now after his disastrous week to forget last week!).

Why not integrate one or two EDS lads every single game? We all know exactly who he is going to bring on each week..Lampard, one of the Ferdy twins or sick-note or his brother, so dump the rest of the waste each week and possibly give some of the kids a go, even if for 20 mins each week.

blueboy wrote:Why not integrate one or two EDS lads every single game? We all know exactly who he is going to bring on each week..Lampard, one of the Ferdy twins or sick-note or his brother, so dump the rest of the waste each week and possibly give some of the kids a go, even if for 20 mins each week.

Exactly!  I thought this manager was brought in for his "holistic" approach, but what we're really seeing is the usual suspects time and time again.  I think Chelsea are the only other club this season to have not featured youth players on a regular basis and I suspect that's got more to do with the fact they don't really need to bother.

I still fail to see why we can't integrate more kids into the first team.  We keep hauling players back from injury too quickly (Serge, Nasri, Silva, Jovetic, Dzeko) instead of looking at options.  We keep benching players like Sinclair when we have much more capable players in the EDS.  Even during their long spell at the top, United always had kids on the bench.  Why can't we?

In my usual vein of asking a rhetorical question, I think the answer is this:  Pellegrini has been tasked with winning 5 trophies in 5 years.  Doesn't this go against the grain of "holistic"?  He's building a team for the future, but still needs to win things now.  Sounds a bit like an unfathomable paradox to me.  But he's already ahead in the game with two trophies in his first year, so why not relax this season and blood some kids?  What's the worst that could happen?  We're already out of the two domestic trophies, the PL is still slipping from our grasp and any thoughts of winning the CL are laughable.  So we're likely not going to win anything anyway.  What have we got to lose???  Get playing them kids!  At least they'll be hungry, unlike some of the first team.

Pellegrini has been tasked with winning 5 trophies in 5 years.
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There's a paradox!!

What are the chances of Pellegrini being there in 3 years time?

It is a paradox you are right. Pellegrini wasn't tasked with winning all of them as such, this is what Soriano said at the time (which was before he was appointed) -

"I think that next season is going to be much better. I am convinced about that," Soriano said. "It doesn't mean we are going to win one or two titles but in the grand scheme of things, if we look at the next five years and I could plan now, I would say I want to win five trophies in the next five years.

"That may mean we win no trophy one year and two in another but on average I want one title a year. That includes the Champions League, the Premier League or the FA Cup. Is it a realistic aim? I think it is, yes, but I am talking about five years.

"If next year we don't win but progress our football and get to the semi-finals of the Champions League, finish second in the Premier League and lose the FA Cup final again that will be fine.

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"What we are asking the new manager to do is build a squad but also a football concept and a way of working that will last for the next 10 years. The manager has a shorter span [than that]. We are asking the manager to win this season, next season and every Sunday."

It is effectively an almost impossible task - keep winning whilst blooding youth. I do expect it to start happening in the next couple of years though, by that point it has been long enough for the quality to be coming through. The real benefit of the CFA probably won't be for another four years yet though.

"If next year we don't win but progress our football and get to the semi-finals of the Champions League, finish second in the Premier League and lose the FA Cup final again that will be fine.


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 - Our football definitely hasn't progressed - if fact, it's been dire.
 - Semi-finals of the CL...can't see it the way we are playing.
 - Finished 2nd in the PL...possible.
 - Lose the FA Cup Final? 

1 out of 4.....not great really or achieving the objectives.

Can't disagree with that blueboy.

Just kidding Leo, you made some astute obsevations there and i cannot disagree there is definitely something awry at the club. It's getting very like just before Mancini was kicked out, the players do not seem to be playing for the manager anymore and i'm not sure that he has a plan 'A' half the time never mind a plan 'B'.
It is my opinion that Mangala is young and needs more time playing in the PL to get the experience, dropping him all the time is not going to do his confidence any good. A lot of fans reacted the same with Demichellis and Nasri when they didn't hit the ground running, we want instant success and we are not willing to give players that need it a chance to settle into the team.
The defence needs to hold it's shape and stop getting pulled all over the park then having to sprint back when Navas or some other dufus loses possession while we are all pushed high up the park and we are hit with a pacy counter attack.At the moment i think Mangala and Demi are probably our best pairing and even Dedryk is better than VK at the moment, the guy has lost the plot. He makes poor decisions and reckless challenges and is pretty much guaranteed a card in every game and always feels like a red card waiting to happen, a far cry from the player we adored 3 or 4 seasons ago, imho.
I agree about the quality of players brought in by the Spanish pair and wonder why they choose such inferior players like the ones previously ,mentioned above? It's as if they have a plan to sabotage us and weaken our squad, many thought a couple of seasons ago that we had the strongest squad in the PL. Now it's one of the oldest and seems to have gone backwards rather than strengthen with weak additions like Navas and Jovetic. We need to offload Dzeko and Jovetic and buy a top striker, a decent wide player on each side that can cross a ball including taking effective corners and a decent LB to replace Kolarov.

Can't argue with that MCM.

However, to try and redress the balance of my rants, we have had an awful injury crisis at the club this season. To lose Kompany, Nasri, Aguero, both Chuckle Brothers up front, Silva for a while, TLMLF off at the poxy-con cup....we only have to look across town and witness the same at the swamp and see how their similar injury crisis has left them where they are....or how massive the loss of Suarez and Sturridge has been at Liverpool.

On the other hand, Chelsea have only really lost Costa for a month at the beginning of the season, and when he was lost, they managed OK with their attacking MF's, Remy and Ba to supplement them.

I've always said Mangala is young and will need time. The problem is, is that we paid a massive fee for him. £20m, and nobody would be saying anything...but £32-40m (whoever you believe) you'd expect a seasoned CB for that who could adapt immediately.

I also agree about the defence...even Zaba has caught the Kolorov bug. Getting caught out of position far too easily and on too many occasions.
I think a lot of this is down to Navas. He's making overlapping runs, time and time again, but the problem is his final pass/cross, which inevitably hit the first defender and we suddenly get caught on a quick counter attack with both of them in the opposition final third. However, positionally, you would expect one of the Ferdy twins to at least cover their area of the pitch when we break, but unfortunately, I don't think either are positionally adept and even less so when the Captain isn't there to call out to them and organise them into the correct positions.

In addition, on the left, Kolorov as we all know is nothing short of terrible as a LB. LMF, fair enough - but he's a very poor LB, so the same thing happens out wide left.

So as you mentioned, to have some 'genuine' wide players who can do the job of getting to a by-line or at least being able to deliver pin point crosses from both wings would alleviate the need for both full backs to have to consistently support Navas or an other on the left...they can sit high up the pitch near the half way line and support whenever needed, rather than having to be the player that gives us width. This would probably need a change in tactics, but we're a shadow of where we were for part of last season.

Agree also, Dzeko and Jovetic have had their chances...time to get rid whilst we can and buy at least one more top class striker in the mould of a Muller who is good in the air.

ManCityMan wrote:I agree about the quality of players brought in by the Spanish pair and wonder why they choose such inferior players like the ones previously ,mentioned above? It's as if they have a plan to sabotage us and weaken our squad, many thought a couple of seasons ago that we had the strongest squad in the PL. Now it's one of the oldest and seems to have gone backwards rather than strengthen with weak additions like Navas and Jovetic.

I don't know about the sabotage bit (although you have to wonder!), but you're bang on about the squad.  When we won the league in 2012, we had a strong, vibrant squad which was, if I recall correctly, had the second or third lowest average age in the PL and that was including old men like Lescott and Barry.

Now we're something like the second oldest and we have an "ageing" squad, apparently.  Granted, all those who were there in 2012 are now a couple of years older now, but it doesn't help matters when you see the swaps made; we've brought in old players for young, and sometimes replaced old players with even older ones!  And if you were a budding 17 year old, desperate to get into the squad, watching younger players making way for older ones must be galling.

Neither of the Ferdy Boys have the positional awareness of Barry or the aggression of De Jong.  Navas is a weaker version of Johnson.  Jovetic is a less agile version of Tevez (and he breaks more often, too).  Mangala may well come good, but right now I'd ditch him and get Lescott back, at least he did well in the air.  And let's not even go near the horrors of Sinclair and Garcia!

I think Nedge was the best signing that Soreen and Burgervan have made.  Everyone else has been dubious at best.

I honestly think Bony will make a massive difference...someone we're crying out for.

I hope so too, mate.  Proven PL experience, best goalscorer in 2014 (and for a struggling club at that), I really do hope he can hit the ground running.

He has to hit the ground running or we are totally fooked.

The sabotage comment was a bit tongue in cheek but you never know
I just feel that we need a manager that can motivate the players and give them the hairdryer treatment when required, and it has been needed on more than one occasion recently which in itself is worrying. I don't feel that MP is that man and we need a change, like somebody else said recently we don't want to turn into a Chelsea or even the old City with a new manager every 5 minutes but MP is no engineer and if he is then he has dropped a spanner in the works.