Engineer ! My arse

by TMG Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:13 pm

Couldn't engineer his way out of a paper bag Embarassed

by **leopold** Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:46 pm

It might've helped if the players actually put in a performance for 90 minutes instead of just the last ten. I only got to hear the last few minutes of the match (I was managing my lads to an impressive 5-3 win over the team at the top of the league Very Happy

) and the commentary team were lamenting over the dire performance.

We need to find a way to unpick these teams who park the bus against us. Third season on the spin Sunderland have done this and yet again we've lost because we can't break these defences up.

by **Topdawg** Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:58 pm

4th season...

by blueboy Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:15 pm

Season so far.

PL.. beaten 4 times away from home.

Beaten beyond belief by Bayern at home in the CL due to his poor tactics and not changing it quicker.

Picks Garcia regularly.

Fucks about the back 4 and MF consistently....

His back room and medical staff must be doing something wrong with all these defensive errors and injuries we keep picking up.

Overall, he's been fucking shit. Simple as.

by **Topdawg** Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:10 pm

A tad harsh Bluey, but overall not too far off. We should not be languishing in 8th after 11 games. Ok, if we win all our home games we'll get CL footy next year...but that isn't good enough.

by blueboy Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:26 pm

I said at the start of the season..we spent £100m on players...I wasn't overly impressed with any of them. I'll admit, Negredo has been impressive overall IMO. However, wasn't he the cheapest?

£30m for Feenandinho, however how much he has improved, is vastly over priced. Jovetic? Always injured. Navas? Can't or won't, beat a player..

We've kept the useless cunt Garcia.

We've bought an old man at CB in DeM...

We kept Dzeko a la last season when we could've got a good price for him in the summer.

He fucks about with the defence consistently.

Sorry, not harsh...plain old shite.

Wrap it up all you like, we've gone backwards after spending £100m on 4 players.

Would you trust him with any more money??? I fucking wouldn't... his selections are pathetic.

by Paulpowersleftfoot Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:25 pm

Was so similar to a Mancini away day
Outfought and out thought

Pantilimon 5
Richards 4
Lescott 5
Demichellis 5
Kolorov 5
Garcia 2
Yaya 3
Milner 5
Negredo 5
Aguero 6
Nasri 5

by **Topdawg** Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:30 pm

I just don't get it. Mancini, and Pellegrini, knew that the same fuckers didn't perform away from home. I can't accept having Garcia in the team full stop and Kolorov as LB.
There just seems no fight at all or we commit niggly fouls.

Anyone getting less than 5 needs to take a good look in the mirror because 5 is shit.

by blueboy Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:53 pm

Like I said earlier... I couldn't be arsed watching it after I got home and found out the result. Feel sorry for you PPLF.. going all that way. What was your take on the performance? I know you scored it, but what did you see?

by Paulpowersleftfoot Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:58 pm

You sort of knew what was coming with the team selection,whenever Garcia and Kolorov take to the field the insipid dog of a performance is becoming inevitable
How they can't work out that it's all about the tempo away from home is just a mystery and Pellegrini needs to really up his game if he's to survive in my opinion

by blueboy Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:37 pm

He just isn't doing it, or learning at all is he? Agree, we said after Villa and Cardiff.. He has to learn...he just isn't which is a massive worry for somebody who is supposedly tactically astute. So far, he's tactically a moron.

by titbumwilly Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:29 pm

I'm sorry but by picking G**** today, it showed that he is not the man for the job. I only needed to see him for 2 minutes to realise that he is not a footballer.
My boy summed it up today. At the final whistle he text me to say "no shape, no tactics, it was just kick it forward and hope". Just about sums it up.
Total and utter shite from front to back.

by **shakencity** Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:41 am

As much as MP get's the blame....and yes i know he picks the team but surely the players must take some of the blame too.

Richards was absolutely woeful yesterday, only once did i see him get forward and that was to imitate Ashley Youngs diving theatrics....embarrassing.
Garcia, well tbh i didn't expect anything else.
Milner was shit too and played as a 5th defender in the 2nd half.
Yaya was absolute tosh too, he went back to playing too deep too often, becoming ineffective....admittedly, that's MP fault.
Kolarov's been playing better than Clichy of late, so deserved his chance....but his passing/crossing was poor to say the least.
Nasri tried but still never produced anything of note.

The only person i thought played well was DeMichelis, he looked solid, assured and always brought and passed the ball forward.

Tbh, i really do think our team looks weak without Silva. The longer he's out, the more trouble we'll be in.

by titbumwilly Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:50 am

I'm afraid Richards just isn't good enough, sad to say, but it's the truth. A Palace fan I know summed it up perfectly when he said that Richards was good enough up to a point, but the team outgrew his ability three seasons ago.
Don't get me started on G*****, total waste of time. Surely even he must know he's not a footballer? He must just be waiting for the day when someone says "come on son, you've been sussed, get your stuff and bugger off"
The whole squad to me looks unbalanced, somebody somewhere needs their arse kicked for allowing it to happen.

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:06 am

The Engineer...is there a common denominator in these games?

We know our home form is solid. And we know somehow, we are shit away from home, so looking at our away teams:

Cardiff:

01 Hart
05 Zabaleta
06 Lescott
14 Garcia
22 Clichy
15 Navas (Nasri - 55' )
21 Silva
25 Fernandinho (Milner - 77' )
42 Toure
10 Dzeko (Negredo - 69' )
16 Aguero

Substitutes

30 Pantilimon
13 Kolarov
33 Nastasic
07 Milner
08 Nasri
17 Rodwell
09 Negredo

Stoke:

01 Hart
05 Zabaleta
13 Kolarov
14 Garcia Booked
33 Nastasic
07 Milner
08 Nasri (Navas - 73' )
17 Rodwell
35 Jovetic (Aguero - 63' )
42 Toure
09 Negredo

Substitutes

30 Pantilimon
06 Lescott
38 Boyata
15 Navas
25 Fernandinho
10 Dzeko
16 Aguero

Villa:

01 Hart
04 Kompany
05 Zabaleta
13 Kolarov
33 Nastasic
07 Milner
08 Nasri Booked (Navas - 66' )
25 Fernandinho
42 Toure
09 Negredo
10 Dzeko (Jovetic - 74' )

Substitutes

30 Pantilimon
02 Richards
06 Lescott
22 Clichy
14 Garcia
15 Navas
35 Jovetic

West Ham:

01 Hart
02 Richards
22 Clichy Booked
42 Yaya Touré
14 Javi García
33 Nastasic
08 Nasri (Milner - 74' )
25 Fernandinho
16 Agüero (Jovetic - 82' )
09 Negredo (Kolarov - 66' )
21 Silva Booked

Substitutes

05 Zabaleta
06 Lescott
07 Milner
10 Dzeko
13 Kolarov
30 Pantilimon
35 Jovetic

Chelsea:

01 Hart
05 Zabaleta Booked
22 Clichy
25 Fernandinho
26 Demichelis
33 Nastasic Booked
08 Nasri (Jesús Navas - 70' )
14 Javi García Booked (Kolarov - 80' )
16 Agüero (Negredo - 87' )
42 Yaya Touré
21 Silva

Substitutes

02 Richards
07 Milner
09 Negredo
10 Dzeko
13 Kolarov
15 Jesús Navas
30 Pantilimon

Sunderland:

30 Pantilimon
02 Richards (Zabaleta - 71' )
13 Kolarov
14 Javi García Booked (Jesús Navas - 45' )
26 Demichelis
06 Lescott
07 Milner
42 Yaya Touré
09 Negredo (Dzeko - 71' )
16 Agüero
08 Nasri

Substitutes

01 Hart
05 Zabaleta
10 Dzeko
15 Jesús Navas
17 Rodwell
22 Clichy
38 Boyata

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:11 am

Or is it just a simple thing?

MP cannot/won't change his style of play for away games. He tries to attack teams away from home and they just sit back and try and hit us on the break....making it difficult for our MF and strikers.

Has he learned anything about the PL or his players?

by **Topdawg** Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:18 am

I watched the last 30 minutes or so yesterday and we were pedestrian. When Chelsea were looking for something from their game, they went for it. Same goes for Utd. We just walk it around, no real intensity and no fucker in the box. We are trying to break down a wall of 8 or 9 players with tippy tappy and it doesn't always work. Silva can make it happen but he's working with Nasri, Aguero etc. and there are always options. When Nasri got the ball what were his options? Outside to the woeful Kolarov? Inside to the insipid Toure? Long ball out wide to the ineffective Navas? Back to the useless Garcia?

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:36 am

Something has bugged me this season.

We bought Navas as we were supposed to be crying out for width and pace.

I really don't think we have changed our attacking play that much from last season - and Navas hasn't done it whatsoever. He is an out and out winger.....so why when he gets the ball doesn't he beat his man? I think I can count on one hand, when I've seen him get round the back of a player and cross the ball into the box. Who's fault is this? The player? The Manager?

by **shakencity** Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:40 am

The defenders Razz

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:49 am

shakencity wrote:The defenders

If you look at the amount of constant changes he's made all over the pitch, not just the defence. It's ridiculous.

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:05 am

blueboy wrote:Would you trust him with any more money??? I fucking wouldn't... his selections are pathetic.

I'm interested to know... Were you saying this after we destroyed Norwich, or after we gave Moscow a good hiding? Because those were his team selections as well, against better opponents than Sunderland, and yet we won by a mile.

shakencity wrote:As much as MP get's the blame....and yes i know he picks the team but surely the players must take some of the blame too.

They should take more of the blame. Pellers picks the team, but he can't force them to play well. The whole demeanour seemed to be one of, "Hey, we've scored 12 goals in 2 games, we've got this".

Topdawg wrote:I watched the last 30 minutes or so yesterday and we were pedestrian. When Chelsea were looking for something from their game, they went for it. Same goes for Utd. We just walk it around, no real intensity and no fucker in the box. We are trying to break down a wall of 8 or 9 players with tippy tappy and it doesn't always work. Silva can make it happen but he's working with Nasri, Aguero etc. and there are always options. When Nasri got the ball what were his options? Outside to the woeful Kolarov? Inside to the insipid Toure? Long ball out wide to the ineffective Navas? Back to the useless Garcia?

And this is another hangover from the Mancini era: Against a team parking the bus, we just don't have a clue how to break them down. And in a way, it's our own doing: Poyet would've seen us scoring for fun and asked how they dealt with it last time. So naturally they just park the old bus and leave us scratching our heads, when surely what we needed was a 4-3-3 formation and just flood the damn box with blue shirts. And with so many bodies in the last third, there's every chance we could pick up a penalty or a free kick which could turn us around.

by **shakencity** Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:06 am

blueboy wrote: I think I can count on one hand, when I've seen him get round the back of a player and cross the ball into the box. Who's fault is this? The player? The Manager?

"The defenders" was a reference to Navas' inability to get crosses in.....not the City team blue.

by **Topdawg** Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:13 am

I agree Leo, we should have had 3 players (at least) in the box every time we attacked and they had 10 men in the box. Keeping all our men outside the box meant they weren't under enough pressure. The men nearest the ball were under some pressure and anyone marking Negredo and Aguero (who kept coming out of the box for the ball). So you had maybe 4 or 5 defenders, at any one time, under some direct pressure. With 3 or 4 on the box most of their defenders would have been under pressure and then something gives. You cannot easily concentrate all the time and someone would have made the killer mistake for us to score.

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:18 am

shakencity wrote:
blueboy wrote: I think I can count on one hand, when I've seen him get round the back of a player and cross the ball into the box. Who's fault is this? The player? The Manager?
"The defenders" was a reference to Navas' inability to get crosses in.....not the City team blue.

Sorry Shaken....misunderstood it.

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:28 am

Exactly, Dawg. Sunderland's plan was "Park the bus, then hoof a long ball to Fletcher when we get a chance." So what do we do? Keep the back four in place. Duh! scratch

I'd have even been tempted with a 3-4-3 formation. That should, in all honesty, been enough at the back to cope with the occasional foray into our half of the pitch, but given us enough bodies up front to make Sunderland work harder for their result. We made it easy for them to stand there and block everything that came at them.

And what was this nonsense about not letting Pants go up for the corners at the end? Six foot nine of goalkeeper in the box was bound to cause some problems. So why keep him back? On the off chance we lose the game 2-0? Well, we were already losing, what would one more goal do to hurt us??

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:36 am

leopold wrote:
blueboy wrote:Would you trust him with any more money??? I fucking wouldn't... his selections are pathetic.
I'm interested to know... Were you saying this after we destroyed Norwich, or after we gave Moscow a good hiding? Because those were his team selections as well, against better opponents than Sunderland, and yet we won by a mile.

Both games at home Leo. My point was that he's bought 5 players for approx £100m. Lescott has hardly played this season - so he mustn't have rated him, and went a bought a £3m CB as a stop-gap. Why not buy a top class CB and get rid of Lescott?

He's bought Jovetic - and granted, he's been injured a lot...so difficult to assess.

Fernandinho - we've all argued over his form/price etc....and though he has improved, I still go back to the £30m price tag for a DMF player.

Navas was clearly bought for a lot of money to provide width. He's been in and out of the team and just hasn't looked like he wants to beat a player. Granted it may take time for him.....but his job is a winger.

Then Negredo - who has been a hit for me with Aguero.

It's absolutely clear that we are strong at home, but just winning at home won't get us into the top 4. Our away form is awful as we know. Without Kompany and Silva, especially away from home, we just don't have any solidity at the back when needed and guile in the middle of the park when Silva is out. Does this mean he needs to address these areas in Jan - more money being thrown at the squad? Probably.

shakencity wrote:As much as MP get's the blame....and yes i know he picks the team but surely the players must take some of the blame too.
They should take more of the blame. Pellers picks the team, but he can't force them to play well. The whole demeanour seemed to be one of, "Hey, we've scored 12 goals in 2 games, we've got this".

Why can't he force them to play well? If the players are allowed to show that attitude, isn't it the managers job to stop it? What would Taggert do if he saw his players playing like that?
Players have bad days......but something isn't right if we keep having the same bad days away from home....and MP keeps saying "I'm not sure why".....well he should know, it's not an isolated occurrence.

Topdawg wrote:I watched the last 30 minutes or so yesterday and we were pedestrian. When Chelsea were looking for something from their game, they went for it. Same goes for Utd. We just walk it around, no real intensity and no fucker in the box. We are trying to break down a wall of 8 or 9 players with tippy tappy and it doesn't always work. Silva can make it happen but he's working with Nasri, Aguero etc. and there are always options. When Nasri got the ball what were his options? Outside to the woeful Kolarov? Inside to the insipid Toure? Long ball out wide to the ineffective Navas? Back to the useless Garcia?
And this is another hangover from the Mancini era: Against a team parking the bus, we just don't have a clue how to break them down. And in a way, it's our own doing: Poyet would've seen us scoring for fun and asked how they dealt with it last time. So naturally they just park the old bus and leave us scratching our heads, when surely what we needed was a 4-3-3 formation and just flood the damn box with blue shirts. And with so many bodies in the last third, there's every chance we could pick up a penalty or a free kick which could turn us around.

And again - if you're saying that Leo....and others, what did MP do about it? Players rarely change the system themselves..

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:13 pm

Okay, so when you mean selection, you mean new players, as opposed to the ones picked to play for each game. With you now.

Lescott has hardly played this season - so he mustn't have rated him, and went a bought a £3m CB as a stop-gap. Why not buy a top class CB and get rid of Lescott?

If we'd sold Lescott, I think we'd have fallen foul of the home grown rule. That's the only reason I can think of for not selling him.

He's bought Jovetic - and granted, he's been injured a lot...so difficult to assess.

Fernandinho - we've all argued over his form/price etc....and though he has improved, I still go back to the £30m price tag for a DMF player.

Navas was clearly bought for a lot of money to provide width. He's been in and out of the team and just hasn't looked like he wants to beat a player. Granted it may take time for him.....but his job is a winger.

Then Negredo - who has been a hit for me with Aguero.

So, you said before that his choices of purchase are suspect. But you've acknowledged Nedge is a decent purchase and Ferdy is good but overpriced. You also don't say Navas or Jovetic are bad players. So where exactly did he waste the money? Where are the bad purchases? Sorry, but you're saying one thing and then contradicting yourself, I'm just hopelessly confused as to what you're upset about and trying to figure it out.

It's absolutely clear that we are strong at home, but just winning at home won't get us into the top 4. Our away form is awful as we know. Without Kompany and Silva, especially away from home, we just don't have any solidity at the back when needed and guile in the middle of the park when Silva is out. Does this mean he needs to address these areas in Jan - more money being thrown at the squad? Probably.

Our away results are awful, but we've not been awful in every away game. We've had lots of possession and we've not been outplayed, we've just not taken advantage of what chances we've had. Granted, against Sunderland we were dire, but we still played better than them and we lost because they took advantage of the single chance they had.

Silva being out is irrelevant: He was on the park against Chelsea and we lost that too, despite having more possession and more shots. I think our biggest issue is we're trying too hard to not lose and that's the problem; we need to play to win and we're just not doing it.

Why can't he force them to play well? If the players are allowed to show that attitude, isn't it the managers job to stop it? What would Taggert do if he saw his players playing like that?
Players have bad days......but something isn't right if we keep having the same bad days away from home....and MP keeps saying "I'm not sure why".....well he should know, it's not an isolated occurrence.

Taggart had the backing of the board, so if he thought someone was getting too big, he could bin them off and the board would let him. Can you see our board doing the same? "Whoa, Manuel, you can't do that, he cost us £25 million quid!"

And again - if you're saying that Leo....and others, what did MP do about it? Players rarely change the system themselves..

Manny should be more adventurous on the road. There's a reason why Sunderland park the number 20 to Wheatsheaf in front of goal and it's because they're shit scared of taking a beating at home, they daren't play an open game. It's a match which requires a strong arm and a big presence in the last third. So why he made the back four stay with Fletcher instead of pushing up and forcing the issue is a mystery. Tactically wrong. But then I dare say La Liga don't have teams that park the bus like that and, if you look at it, this is the first time Manny has been up against such a team.

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:23 pm

leopold wrote:Okay, so when you mean selection, you mean new players, as opposed to the ones picked to play for each game. With you now.

Lescott has hardly played this season - so he mustn't have rated him, and went a bought a £3m CB as a stop-gap. Why not buy a top class CB and get rid of Lescott?
If we'd sold Lescott, I think we'd have fallen foul of the home grown rule. That's the only reason I can think of for not selling him.

Must be, because to keep him on the bench and play Garcia ahead of him is nothing short of bewildering management.

He's bought Jovetic - and granted, he's been injured a lot...so difficult to assess.

Fernandinho - we've all argued over his form/price etc....and though he has improved, I still go back to the £30m price tag for a DMF player.

Navas was clearly bought for a lot of money to provide width. He's been in and out of the team and just hasn't looked like he wants to beat a player. Granted it may take time for him.....but his job is a winger.

Then Negredo - who has been a hit for me with Aguero.
So, you said before that his choices of purchase are suspect. But you've acknowledged Nedge is a decent purchase and Ferdy is good but overpriced. You also don't say Navas or Jovetic are bad players. So where exactly did he waste the money? Where are the bad purchases? Sorry, but you're saying one thing and then contradicting yourself, I'm just hopelessly confused as to what you're upset about and trying to figure it out.

No I'm not. Fernandinho hasn't put in £30m performances every week. He's a few good games, but for £30m.....he's not the difference between us winning and losing a game, which a £30m CB or £30m attacking MF could be.

Navas, for me, has been poor. Now I'm not saying that's all down to him, as MP has had him in and out of the team, but he bought him to give us width and attacking intent with pace.....that just hasn't happened. So far, average buy......not to say that things may not change for him and us in the future.

Jovetic - he's had a few games and not really shone - but then again, as I said, difficult to assess until he gets more games.

Negredo has been a success for me. The one shining light out of his buys.

DeM - a solid as he may be, he has no pace or height - and as somebody else put it - he's always liable to a big mistake each game.

So there's clearly no contradiction from me Leo.....for £100m and 5 players, one has been a success, the other has had a few decent games....the others??? 2 out of 5.......represents below average spending by MP.

It's absolutely clear that we are strong at home, but just winning at home won't get us into the top 4. Our away form is awful as we know. Without Kompany and Silva, especially away from home, we just don't have any solidity at the back when needed and guile in the middle of the park when Silva is out. Does this mean he needs to address these areas in Jan - more money being thrown at the squad? Probably.
Our away results are awful, but we've not been awful in every away game. We've had lots of possession and we've not been outplayed, we've just not taken advantage of what chances we've had. Granted, against Sunderland we were dire, but we still played better than them and we lost because they took advantage of the single chance they had.

Silva being out is irrelevant: He was on the park against Chelsea and we lost that too, despite having more possession and more shots. I think our biggest issue is we're trying too hard to not lose and that's the problem; we need to play to win and we're just not doing it.

Silva out isn't irrelevant as we outplayed Chelsea with him in our team according to your take on how we outplayed other teams. It's not all about possession and good football....if you play well, dominate possession and score 2 goals, but let the opposition score 3.....then wrap that up how you like.....it's shit. Therefore, our defence has been extremely deficient in those games we dominated but lost.......and we've all said that MP's selections were poor with Garcia at CB, constant swapping and changing LB/RB/CB positions.....so we can play well in every game, but if he can't fix his back 4 problems, that's his fault, no-one else's.

Why can't he force them to play well? If the players are allowed to show that attitude, isn't it the managers job to stop it? What would Taggert do if he saw his players playing like that?
Players have bad days......but something isn't right if we keep having the same bad days away from home....and MP keeps saying "I'm not sure why".....well he should know, it's not an isolated occurrence.
Taggart had the backing of the board, so if he thought someone was getting too big, he could bin them off and the board would let him. Can you see our board doing the same? "Whoa, Manuel, you can't do that, he cost us £25 million quid!"

So what you're saying then is MP hasn't got the backing of the board, who gave him £100m to spend in the summer? Therefore, if true....the board are never going to back him in Jan when we need a few new players........and we are stuck on this away day merry-go-round until MP wakes up and realises he can't play the same way as he does at home, to away games.....again, how many times do we have to dominate the game, but get beat for the penny to drop?

And again - if you're saying that Leo....and others, what did MP do about it? Players rarely change the system themselves..
Manny should be more adventurous on the road. There's a reason why Sunderland park the number 20 to Wheatsheaf in front of goal and it's because they're shit scared of taking a beating at home, they daren't play an open game. It's a match which requires a strong arm and a big presence in the last third. So why he made the back four stay with Fletcher instead of pushing up and forcing the issue is a mystery. Tactically wrong. But then I dare say La Liga don't have teams that park the bus like that and, if you look at it, this is the first time Manny has been up against such a team.

Is the complete opposite not a better approach? If they are going to park the bus, draw them out, sit back and keep possession, as going for it clearly leaves us exposed at the back when we can't break them down - a la yesterday. And Silva is the one player who can unlock these situations - but if he's not playing, where's plan B by MP?.......sound familiar?

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:02 pm

Fernandinho hasn't put in £30m performances every week. He's a few good games, but for £30m.....he's not the difference between us winning and losing a game, which a £30m CB or £30m attacking MF could be.

And I'm not going to disagree with you. However, there's an entire committee who decide on how much to bid for a player, they were the ones to stop at the £22m that Ferd is most likely worth, but they didn't. Ferd may not be a £30m player, but the money doesn't make him a bad one. Just because someone allowed that much to be spent doesn't make him worse, just less good value.

Navas, for me, has been poor. Now I'm not saying that's all down to him, as MP has had him in and out of the team, but he bought him to give us width and attacking intent with pace.....that just hasn't happened. So far, average buy......not to say that things may not change for him and us in the future.

It's not just that he's been in and out of the team, it's that we don't play the wide game yet. We should at least be showing signs of it by now, but the fact that the full backs still play the wide role and Silva is still played on the wrong side of the pitch is quite telling.

Silva out isn't irrelevant as we outplayed Chelsea with him in our team according to your take on how we outplayed other teams. It's not all about possession and good football....if you play well, dominate possession and score 2 goals, but let the opposition score 3.....then wrap that up how you like.....it's shit. Therefore, our defence has been extremely deficient in those games we dominated but lost.......and we've all said that MP's selections were poor with Garcia at CB, constant swapping and changing LB/RB/CB positions.....so we can play well in every game, but if he can't fix his back 4 problems, that's his fault, no-one else's.

So... If the problem is defensive, how exactly is Silva relevant?

So what you're saying then is MP hasn't got the backing of the board, who gave him £100m to spend in the summer? Therefore, if true....the board are never going to back him in Jan when we need a few new players....

That's not what I meant and you know it! Taggart had the full backing of the board to do whatever he felt was necessary, including binning off players, even if it meant taking a financial hit. I'm only guessing here, but I doubt Manny has the same luxury. It's very easy to threaten a player of the status of Beckham or Ronaldo when you can actually follow through. I dare say, if Becks had the board looking over and going, "Oh, don't go upsetting him Alex, he's going to cost us too much money!" the boot may have remained unkicked.

Is the complete opposite not a better approach? If they are going to park the bus, draw them out, sit back and keep possession, as going for it clearly leaves us exposed at the back when we can't break them down - a la yesterday.

So, your suggestion is we should sit back and invite teams to attack us? With our defense? Or are you saying we play the same tippy tappy bollocks, but in our own half of the field?

Thing is, I sort of see what you're getting at, but I don't think our defense is up to it if we get caught out.

by Jordan Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:11 pm

I don't think we're quick enough, or intense enough on the break to allow teams to come at us away from home. But that is probably the way it should be, and with the players we've got it should be easy.

Yesterday we should have let Sunderland have the ball a bit, draw them out and then pounce, but we just aren't quick enough out of the blocks for this to work. It's pointless us having 65% possession and doing absolutely naff all with it because we are too slow at building our attacks. I don't think this is particulary MP's fault either. It's definitely a hangover from Mancini's era.

by coolenglishbob Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:27 pm

I know that we rely on David Silva and we are going to miss him,but I have just read that Barca are going to be without Messi for the next three or so weeks.Lets see who is the loser here,I bet it will not be Barca.If we do not get the problem solved we will not get in the Champs.league next season regardless of how much money is spent.The performance at Sunderland was utter garbage,I found it hard to even consider a MOM,and it is not all down to MP:P Razz

by coolenglishbob Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:28 pm

I know that we rely on David Silva and we are going to miss him,but I have just read that Barca are going to be without Messi for the next three or so weeks.Lets see who is the loser here,I bet it will not be Barca.If we do not get the problem solved we will not get in the Champs.league next season regardless of how much money is spent.The performance at Sunderland was utter garbage,I found it hard to even consider a MOM,and it is not all down to MP:P Razz

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:36 pm

leopold wrote:
Fernandinho hasn't put in £30m performances every week. He's a few good games, but for £30m.....he's not the difference between us winning and losing a game, which a £30m CB or £30m attacking MF could be.
And I'm not going to disagree with you. However, there's an entire committee who decide on how much to bid for a player, they were the ones to stop at the £22m that Ferd is most likely worth, but they didn't. Ferd may not be a £30m player, but the money doesn't make him a bad one. Just because someone allowed that much to be spent doesn't make him worse, just less good value.

Navas, for me, has been poor. Now I'm not saying that's all down to him, as MP has had him in and out of the team, but he bought him to give us width and attacking intent with pace.....that just hasn't happened. So far, average buy......not to say that things may not change for him and us in the future.
It's not just that he's been in and out of the team, it's that we don't play the wide game yet. We should at least be showing signs of it by now, but the fact that the full backs still play the wide role and Silva is still played on the wrong side of the pitch is quite telling.

Silva out isn't irrelevant as we outplayed Chelsea with him in our team according to your take on how we outplayed other teams. It's not all about possession and good football....if you play well, dominate possession and score 2 goals, but let the opposition score 3.....then wrap that up how you like.....it's shit. Therefore, our defence has been extremely deficient in those games we dominated but lost.......and we've all said that MP's selections were poor with Garcia at CB, constant swapping and changing LB/RB/CB positions.....so we can play well in every game, but if he can't fix his back 4 problems, that's his fault, no-one else's.
So... If the problem is defensive, how exactly is Silva relevant?

So what you're saying then is MP hasn't got the backing of the board, who gave him £100m to spend in the summer? Therefore, if true....the board are never going to back him in Jan when we need a few new players....
That's not what I meant and you know it! Taggart had the full backing of the board to do whatever he felt was necessary, including binning off players, even if it meant taking a financial hit. I'm only guessing here, but I doubt Manny has the same luxury. It's very easy to threaten a player of the status of Beckham or Ronaldo when you can actually follow through. I dare say, if Becks had the board looking over and going, "Oh, don't go upsetting him Alex, he's going to cost us too much money!" the boot may have remained unkicked.

Is the complete opposite not a better approach? If they are going to park the bus, draw them out, sit back and keep possession, as going for it clearly leaves us exposed at the back when we can't break them down - a la yesterday.
So, your suggestion is we should sit back and invite teams to attack us? With our defense? Or are you saying we play the same tippy tappy bollocks, but in our own half of the field?

Thing is, I sort of see what you're getting at, but I don't think our defense is up to it if we get caught out.

For fear of pissing everyone off, having to keep reading these drawn out discussions, i'll keep it as brief as I can.

We finished 2nd last season to a poor United team. We spent £100m on 5 players, 3 of which haven't really contributed that much to the team.

Our manager has bewildered us with his team selections and constant tinkering of our defence and midfield.

We have no Plan B.......the same as what Mancini was constantly berated for last season and which ultimately cost him his job.

If we had lost 4 away games out of 11 matches at the start of last season, after Mancini had spent another £100m....most would be calling for his head - including me.

MP's tactical nounce has been mind-blowing for one who is supposed to be a 'master-tactician'.

All in all...he's not played a settled team and played them to our strengths...he's been happy to see us thrash a shit Norwich team at home, then CSKA at home, and then, even though we have an International break coming up, change everything around for an away game to a resurgent Sunderland team.....now for me, the buck stops with him.

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:38 pm

coolenglishbob wrote:I know that we rely on David Silva and we are going to miss him,but I have just read that Barca are going to be without Messi for the next three or so weeks.Lets see who is the loser here,I bet it will not be Barca.If we do not get the problem solved we will not get in the Champs.league next season regardless of how much money is spent.The performance at Sunderland was utter garbage,I found it hard to even consider a MOM,and it is not all down to MP:P

so good you posted it twice. Very Happy

I know the players should take some responsibility..so on the flip side then, the 2 big wins over Norwich and CSKA were down to them and not MP? Can't have it both ways.

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:43 pm

Jordan wrote:Yesterday we should have let Sunderland have the ball a bit, draw them out and then pounce, but we just aren't quick enough out of the blocks for this to work.

And that's the other problem with that idea. Assuming we don't get caught out and concede a goal every time they come for us, we simply don't attack with any urgency. And on the rare occasion we do, it's usually one person scampering up the field, with everyone else taking their time to go up in support.

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:57 pm

blueboy wrote:Our manager has bewildered us with his team selections and constant tinkering of our defence and midfield.

We have no Plan B.......the same as what Mancini was constantly berated for last season and which ultimately cost him his job.

If we had lost 4 away games out of 11 matches at the start of last season, after Mancini had spent another £100m....most would be calling for his head - including me.

To be fair, Bobby was berated for a lack of plan B for three years. He lost his job ultimately because of it. And if he hadn't then, chances are that this start would've been his end.

But Pellegrini has been in the job for three months, not three years. He's getting to grips with the team he has and seeing what they can and can't do. There's bound to be some hiccups in the short term. And of course it's not helping that he's had a constant stream of players with injury, which has hampered him somewhat.

I'll grant you, his selection for Sunderland was arrogant. He clearly went there with an easy win in mind and his post match interview showed that he clearly didn't get how he lost. Hopefully he'll learn from this that going to a team at the bottom doesn't equate to an easy victory. Maybe he won't. But we can't start calling for his head after a few weeks and a couple of bad results, we need to give him a bit more time than that.

And the league is a long haul, there's 27 more matches to play yet and we're only six points off the top. Let's not get too bent up about a few away defeats just yet!

by meltonblue Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:57 pm

"We finished 2nd last season to a poor United team. We spent £100m on 5 players, 3 of which haven't really contributed that much to the team.

Our manager has bewildered us with his team selections and constant tinkering of our defence and midfield.

We have no Plan B.......the same as what Mancini was constantly berated for last season and which ultimately cost him his job.

If we had lost 4 away games out of 11 matches at the start of last season, after Mancini had spent another £100m....most would be calling for his head - including me."

Just on that, Pellegrini doesn't have a squad that is 100m better than Mancinis due to who we lost in the summer. In terms of the P&L account, we are pretty even due to the players that came off the books, the squad value now is virtually identical to when Mancini won the title. I think people think Mancini was sacked purely due to him losing the dressing room. It wasn't just that, it was that he still wanted to buy very expensive players whilst retaining others, something that we simply couldn't afford to do with FFP. Pellegrini was effectively hired to do more on less.

I'd also argue that Pellegrini didn't buy those players, we don't operate like that. Soriano and Begiristain, you could quite rightly blame. I don't think the new signings are too bad at all though, the only bit of business in the summer that I wasn't too happy about was Barry going, it has left us too vulnerable in that backup defensive midfield position.

I still feel strangely ok with everything at the moment, I still think everything will click and due to the league this year, we have not yet played our way out of it. I didn't think we would click until January before the season started. That is when I will start to worry. I just don't want to do anything for short term benefit rather than long term gain, which I still see happening.

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:23 pm

Melton and Leo...under NO circumstances have I ever called for his head.

I'm the only one at the moment on here who is backing up the reason for my comments....others posted similar points and I didn't start this thread, but they are not logged on to defend them.

I wouldn't for minute think of sacking him.......and maybe long term, things may turn out for the best.

We are all allowed our opinions on the current state of affairs....which is average at best. I'll stand up and say how I feel.....what I think......if that upsets people....so be it, I really couldn't give a fuck.

I don't buy into this whole, he's been here for 3 months bollocks.....he hasn't. He was appointed on the 14th June....5 months ago. He's had plenty of time - 3 months, before the window closed to buy what he (or Soriano according to others) thought were players that would improve our squad enough to compete with others, who also were allowed to spend fortunes improving their squads. We've played at least 20 games so far - pretty much half a PL season with this squad....

So far.....and all I have said is two things:

1) His players he or others have bought, haven't made us any stronger overall. MP is the manager - we ALL don't know WHO bought those players - but he manages them.

2) His team selections have been woeful at times.

Now if you can argue that:

1) Negredo is better than Tevez - even though I think Negredo is a great signing.....feel free.

2) Fernandinho is a £30m better player than Barry - who we will lose for nothing - feel free.

3) His team selections and tactics have been good this season......again, prove me wrong and tell me when his tactics have changed the game in our favour when we've been in a position to do so - or show me when we have all be bemused and confused with the likes of Garcia playing at CB - and ultimately having a shocker which contributed to us losing points - feel free.

That's all I have said....NEVER, to sack MP........

And wanted to add one more thing:

If Soriano is responsible for the signings and MP is still getting used to the PL after only 3 months, why are the players that MP was lumbered with, so good at home....but so shit away? Is the away form Soriano's fault????

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:52 pm

blueboy wrote:Melton and Leo...under NO circumstances have I ever called for his head.

Actually, Melton didn't say you were. And I felt that your post was suggesting you might. Either way, sacking the manager is the wrong way to go and I'm glad we're all in agreement.

So far, your argument that our away form is down to the manager is flawed. You say that it's not the players, because they're the same ones that are so impressive at home. And it can't be Soriano, because he's not responsible for team selection. But how can it be only the manager? Does someone else select the home team? Or the home tactics? Are all the players simply homers who lose the plot when playing away? And if that's the case, how come they can turn on the style on the Khimki vegetable patch, but not in the Stadium of Light? And how come these same homers play like puddings at home when Bayern Munich come calling?

Something doesn't quite add up. The manager has something to do with it all, granted, but the players can't be totally blameless. Pellegrini wasn't the one on the pitch making a bollocks of the defense any more than he was there scoring goals against the rags. He may well be the scapegoat, but he's not culpable for everything.

And for the record, the season started (for us) on August 19th, three months ago. Everything before that was just a meaningless World Tour jolly which proves nothing and is simply a method of exposing the brand, with the useful side effect of being a team bonding exercise.

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:04 pm

leopold wrote:
blueboy wrote:Melton and Leo...under NO circumstances have I ever called for his head.
Actually, Melton didn't say you were. And I felt that your post was suggesting you might. Either way, sacking the manager is the wrong way to go and I'm glad we're all in agreement.

So far, your argument that our away form is down to the manager is flawed. You say that it's not the players, because they're the same ones that are so impressive at home. And it can't be Soriano, because he's not responsible for team selection. But how can it be only the manager? Does someone else select the home team? Or the home tactics? Are all the players simply homers who lose the plot when playing away? And if that's the case, how come they can turn on the style on the Khimki vegetable patch, but not in the Stadium of Light? And how come these same homers play like puddings at home when Bayern Munich come calling?

Something doesn't quite add up. The manager has something to do with it all, granted, but the players can't be totally blameless. Pellegrini wasn't the one on the pitch making a bollocks of the defense any more than he was there scoring goals against the rags. He may well be the scapegoat, but he's not culpable for everything.

And for the record, the season started (for us) on August 19th, three months ago. Everything before that was just a meaningless World Tour jolly which proves nothing and is simply a method of exposing the brand, with the useful side effect of being a team bonding exercise.

Sorry Leo....what is your point with this post?

If you think that it all starts on the 19th August....you're delusional.

How many times do you hear from professional players and managers say ....."he didn't have a pre-season, so he's behind schedule"???? World Jolly? Way off the mark there fella.

It's a time for bonding, integration, formation, fitness.......not a jolly FFS.

As for MP being on the pitch...no he wasn't....but he picked the team, which changes week in week out at the back......

Khimki vegetable patch...........turn it on???? Are you sure? We won a game we should have on a poor surface........but turn it on????

As for BM at home.....didn't we ALL say that his team selection was strange? Didn't most agree he waited far too long to make a change in formation? Or am I the only one? Embarassed

As for bollocks of defence......he picks Garcia at CB.....he fucks around with the defence....no-one else. Yes, they should be able to play with each other.......that's what 5 days a week training is all about...so why do they play like they've no idea what each other is doing?

Well if it's not MP's fault....and it's down to the players for our away form....then we're fucked!!!

by Paulpowersleftfoot Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:11 pm

I'm underwhelmed with Pellegrini to be honest
I bought into the pressing,high line attacking game we were supposed to be playing when all I've seen so far is the same as mancinis unimaginative formations with an horrific defense to boot.
The same issues that have dogged us for so long away from home haven't been addressed and for some reason the ridiculous idea that there are easy away games in the premier league are allowed to fester.
I can only put the chopping and changing down to the CL being absolute top priority to the detriment of everything else as that's the only plausible explanation
With the squad at his disposal he should be wiping the floor with teams like Sunderland but only if they play with a motivation and at a tempo which will allow them to do so.
How the quite dreadful Garcia is continually given game time I find very worrying,he's simply a horrible player that serves absolutely no purpose
Yaya stole his wages yesterday and that performance against the lesser lights on our travels is becoming the norm for him
Although kolorov has performed better this season,he could hardly have regressed and is never going to be good enough,the talented young left back at Southampton should be top priority in the window
What we haven't replaced is the energy that Carlos gave us and what Rooney provides for Utd and that type of player more than anything is what's needed for us to have a crack at the league if by some miracle we are still in touch with the pack in January

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:24 pm

Thank fuck......some sense at last.....I was really thinking I was losing the plot over these posts.

As for Shaw....couldn't agree more....great young talent.

by bellyblue Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:39 pm

My opinion is we had 3 players who cant build any kind of attack without slowing the game down.
Garcia is slower than anyone i can think of...
Kolorov not much better
Lescott although not the slowest pace wise, has no idea on the ball and slows play to a near standstill.
Also Yaya was missing Fernandinho who works his rocks off and does his work for him.. Thing is he usually pops up with the odd amazing run and can change a game (NOT seen any this season)
Missing Silva which is a worry that we cant do without him, and VK as a leader.
Could go on about Richards and Dzeko and even Milner not being good enough but it's there for everyone to see!

by **leopold** Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:43 pm

blueboy wrote:Sorry Leo....what is your point with this post?

I'm beginning to wonder myself...

I suppose it's something that we can lose a game like this and get heated about it instead of shrugging it off and going, "Typical City", but I'm starting to get the sense I'm taking it all far too seriously by arguing the toss with you about it. It's just a game. We've lost games before and we'll no doubt do it again. And if we don't win the league this season, well, we'll just try again next year, because if winning stuff on a regular basis mattered that much to us, we'd all be wearing red shite. And that's not a typo.

by Paulpowersleftfoot Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:49 pm

Bloke on the way out of the stadium of light said to me " I preferred it when we were shit" Very Happy

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:51 pm

leopold wrote:
blueboy wrote:Sorry Leo....what is your point with this post?
I'm beginning to wonder myself...

I suppose it's something that we can lose a game like this and get heated about it instead of shrugging it off and going, "Typical City", but I'm starting to get the sense I'm taking it all far too seriously by arguing the toss with you about it. It's just a game. We've lost games before and we'll no doubt do it again. And if we don't win the league this season, well, we'll just try again next year, because if winning stuff on a regular basis mattered that much to us, we'd all be wearing red shite. And that's not a typo.

by blueboy Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:54 pm

Paulpowersleftfoot wrote:Bloke on the way out of the stadium of light said to me " I preferred it when we were shit"

and isn't that why we get so frustrated now?

I guess we'll all have opinions about who is to blame, who takes the credit...blah de blah....

It's who we are...why we log on here and bother to spend time debating it........

We could be Liverpool fans......and believe we'll win the PL.... Razz

by meltonblue Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:56 pm

Spot on blueboy, it would be boring if we all agreed!

I just still think we will be fine and Pellegrini will sort it. Malaga and Madrid went through very similar results when first getting used to his system but then kicked on massively.

In terms of Tevez or Negredo, then absolutely Tevez was a better option. You could argue the same with balotelli over jovetic or De Jong over Fernandinho. That was my point earlier though, the three we have now are on vastly reduced wages in comparison. Our squad isn't the same as it was the title winning year and FFP is to blame for that.

We still have a very very good squad all the same and one that I am still sure will come good. I do get people's concerns completely though. I do think it is terrible luck to go through preseason with the players getting used to the defensive line and then to lose defenders (particularly Kompany) almost straight away. It's hard enough anyway changing a system entirely without that happening.

by TMG Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:02 pm

Thought I'd just add something to the discussion

I didn't watch the whole match but from what I saw Sunderland weren't as someone said on here "Park the bus, then hoof a long ball to Fletcher when we get a chance."

Every time they came forward up until the goal I was worried, we gave them the space that they didn't give us when we had the ball

Admittedly as the game progressed it became one way traffic but we still looked vulnerable & I was expecting them to get a 2nd and finish us off

What hacks me off is that MP says he wont change anything away from home because in his opinion we have lost games despite our great attacking football & being the better side

I dont think we have always necessarily been the better side. For example Cardiff deserved their win, Stoke deserved their draw. Also better doesn't always equal a win
We have had more possession yes but possession doesn't mean better. Yesterday Arsenal had more possession than the Rags but lost. Spuds had massively more possession than Newcastle and lost. Everton had a ridiculous 72% possession and only managed a 0-0 draw. We had a massive amount of possession and lost

There is no point being the 'better' side and losing 4 times Manuel & if u carry on with your deluded ways we will continue to lose more away games & u will ultimately be sacked.

by **Topdawg** Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:27 pm

If this carries on much longer, ultimately won't be far away. It's no use crowing about getting through the group stages of the CL (in the weakest group we've ever been in) and then bollocksing up the league. Stoke maybe should have beaten us. Hull had two glorious chances to score and could have beaten us. Newcastle were shit when they played us as were Utd. Chelsea aren't pulling up trees either. Norwich were all over the place and West Ham are at the bottom.

Let's be honest here, we've not looked good enough most of the season.

Anyone that wants to argue, go and watch the Bayern highlights...

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